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It's been such a slow process Madmeg that I fear I have lost the thread ...

I've referred Sylvia back to that marriage a couple of times and said she needs to get the certificate. The certificate will tell her Mary Ann Fry's father's name. Then she will know whether the Mary Ann Fry I found in 1841 daughter of Jonathan and Rhoda Fry is _her_ Mary Ann Fry.

Sylvia that is what you want to know is it not?? Who Mary Ann's parents were?

You first have to get Mary Ann's marriage certificate and Madmeg gave you the information you need for doing that back on page 1, marriage Isaac Deer to Mary Ann Fry, nobody can do anything more to help you with Mary Ann until you do that.

Yes Madmeg I had of course got ahead of myself, there is no point in asking for a parish record of the marriage of Jonathan Fry and Rhoda until Sylvia knows whether Mary Ann's father was Jonathan.

So did I waste my time finding that marriage?

Hi Sylvia, yes, your posts are in the thread here, you can see what you have added. What I didn't understand was when you said all the information you had received is correct but that doesn't really matter.

What you are needing is a record of the marriage of Jonathan Fry and Rhoda and I feel sure that if you contact the Wiltshire records office they will do a search for you and hopefully find the marriage.

i have clicked on add on the information I have received is this what I have to do so that you see all the replies
please let me know
thank you

You have replied in the thread the right way Sylvia but I for one have no idea what you mean by 'all the information I have received is correct'!

all trhe information I have received is correct

Sylvia you have sent me another private message, I found the thread by doing a search, but this time you are going to have to put the info here yourself.

Click the purple REPLY button at the top of the thread, NOT my name!!

Once you've done it, it's easy.

Remember that before 1837 there were no registrations, the records you find will be parish records of baptisms.

So when there are two George baptisms, they have to be two different Georges

GEORGE FRY Christening: 11 JAN 1824 Pitton And Farley, Wiltshire, England
GEORGE FRY Christening: 12 FEB 1832 Pitton And Farley, Wiltshire, England

and when the 1824 one is still living in 1841, the other one must be the child of different parents even though the parents had the same given names. Their fathers might have been cousins for instance. Although it seems unlikely there would have been two Fry couples in the same place at the same time named Jonathan and Rhoda.

Because the records are 'submitted' they are not reliable.

You can request a search of Wiltshire baptism records from the records office there, I have done it and they were very helpful and the fees are reasonable.

http://www.wiltshire.gov.uk/leisureandculture/museumhistoryheritage.htm
http://www.wshc.eu/
http://www.wshc.eu/about-wshc/archives.html

You might also look at the Wiltshire Wills project, I have found some informatin there myself

http://www.wshc.eu/about-wshc/archives/209.html
you can search wills here
http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/heritage/

I just searched for name Fry and there is no Jonathan but there is a John Fry will 1843 Pitton for instance.

Sylvia you have sent me a series of private messages, now that I have found the thread they are about I will copy them here. Please reply using the purple 'Reply' button at the top of the thread, it opens a box so the messages you write will appear in this thread instead of in my inbox.


Bruce
thank you for this information yes Mary was born 1831 and her parents were Rhodda and Jonathon Fry. I have Mary down as having 4 brothers 3 are what you say and the other one I have is Isaac b 1829? but this could be wrong.
Thank you

Bruce
the parents are correct and Mary A Fry was born 1831.With the george births it could be he was born one date and was not registered until the other date

Bruce
thanks for this I will give it a go

Bruce
its possible that George 1824 died at some stage and then they named another son George

by the way another place to look for old parish records on line is here

http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

but it is still a work in progress and I did not find any of your people there.

Here is that couple in 1851

Name: Johnathan Fry
Age: 47
Estimated birth year: abt 1804
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Rhoda
Gender: Male
Where born: Pitton, Wiltshire, England
Civil parish: Alderbury
Johnathan Fry 47
Rhoda Fry 47
Charles Fry 19
Thomas Fry 15

so unfortunately they didn't have any children after 1837 so there is no birth certificate you could get that would show Rhoda's name.

Here's an unfortunate thing, the International Genealogy Index has these


Wiltshire, England, British Isles
Father: Jonathan Fry, Mother: Rhoda

* GEORGE FRY Christening: 11 JAN 1824 Pitton And Farley, Wiltshire, England
* THOMAS FRY Christening: 01 MAR 1835 Pitton And Farley, Wiltshire, England
CHARLES FRY Christening: 21 DEC 1831 Pitton And Farley, Wiltshire, England
GEORGE FRY Christening: 12 FEB 1832 Pitton And Farley, Wiltshire, England

Those first two match the children in the 1841 household. The problem is that it doesn't make any sense that the couple would have another child George in 1832 when their son George was still living.

But it has no Mary daughter of Jonathan Fry and Rhoda.

And ... all of those records are 'submitted' which means a Mormon put them there and they may or may not have got them from real parish records.

Someone has also submitted this:

JONATHAN FRY
Father: THOMAS FRY
Mother: JANE
Marriages:
Spouse: RHODA PHILLIPS
Marriage: 20 OCT 1823 Pitton And Farley, Wiltshire, England

but again it is not reliable without confirmation from an actual parish record. In general, though, with information that precise (not just 'born about 1806' sort of thing) it looks like someone did take the info from a real record.

The records do go back farther, Rhoda Phillips's birth and so on, but they are all 'submitted' records.

This looks like it could be your Mary in 1841

Name: Mary Ann Fry
Age: 10
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Gender: Female
Where born: Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: Alderbury
Hundred: Alderbury
County/Island: Wiltshire
Registration district: Alderbury

Household Members:
Name Age
Jonathan Fry 35 - agricultural labourer
Rhoda Fry 34
George Fry 17
Mary Ann Fry 10
Charles Fry 9
Thomas Fry 6


but there's where you need the marriage certificate. If the father's name matches up then you know who her family was.

Sylvia I think the problem was that you did not give any dates at all and so Ann was just looking in the 1881 census for any names that might match.

The only way to know for sure who a person's parents were is to get their birth certificate. Often you have to start with their marriage certificate, since the only firm info you may have is their spouse's name. The marriage certificate gives the father's name usually. You can use that to match to the father's name on a birth certificate and also to search in censuses.

So Madmeg has given you the info you need (the 'GRO reference') to order their marriage certificate here

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/faqs-order-online.asp

Now in this case the problem is that if they married in 1849 they were born before registration started. So there is no birth certificate. To find her parents' names you need a parish record. Once you have her father's name from the marriage certificate you may be able to find a matching baptism record in the International Genealogy Index

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/igi/search_igi.asp

the postin with reference to Mary Fry, isaac Dear and hANNAH DEAR FROM Ann of green cables and Polly Poppet with xmas bells on. does this help
thank you

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about Isaac Deer
Name: Isaac Deer
Year of Registration: 1849
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Alderbury
County: Wiltshire
Volume: 8
Page: 401 (click to see others on page)

Married Mary Ann Fry.

The marriage certificate will give fathers names and occupations.

is this hannah
1871 census

Name Hannah Dear
Age 19
Estimated Year of Birth 1852
Relationship to Head of Household Servant
Occupation General Servant
Address Cosham St, 'Swan' Inn
District Fareham, Fareham
Parish
Administrative County Hampshire
Birth Place Winterslow
Birth County Wiltsh
in house
james rogers head 63
martha wife 70
arthur rogers grandson 15
alice webb servant 22
hannah dear servant 19
joseph alexander servant 17
john smith servant 17
RG 190 / 1155

1851 census

Name Mary A Dear
Age 21
Estimated Year of Birth 1830
Relationship to Head of Household Wife
Occupation ?
Address Rectory
District Alderbury, Alderbury
Parish
Administrative County Wiltshire
Birth Place Pitton
Birth County Wiltshire
in house
isaac head 23
mary a wife 21
HO 107 / 1846

1871 census

Name Isaac Dear
Age 43
Estimated Year of Birth 1828
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation Carter
Address Pitton Street
District Alderbury, Alderbury
Parish
Administrative County Wiltshire
Birth Place Winterslow
Birth County Wiltshire
in house
isaac head 43
mary ann wife 41
elijah thomas 9
albert john 7
henry edward 1
RG 10 / 1947

1891 census

Name Isaac Dear
Age 63
Estimated Year of Birth 1828
Relationship to Head of Household Head
Occupation Agricultural Labourer
Address Lower & Winterslow
District Alderbury, Alderbury
Parish
Administrative County Wiltshire
Birth Place Winterslow
Birth County Wiltshire
in house
isaac head 63
mary a wife 61
elijah son 29