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Many thanks to all who took the time to help with this line, I have added a whole new line and solved a few queries on my McWilliam line, you are all stars.

I expect that Thomas and John may have still been in Ireland in 1841, which will be why they cant be found in that census.

It is such a shame that they gave their birthplace as Ireland, without giving an area, Derry is'nt enough when your looking for a parish record, never mind I am so pleased to have come this far.

Many thanks to all
Kathy

I think the IRVINE family in 1861 with Charlotte is indeed Elizabeth McWilliams sister and brother-in-law.
Does this look right?? (naturally I can't find a marriage for Thomas and Charlotte Smail...)
Marriages Dec 1845
McCloud Elizabeth Newcastle Tyne 25 411
McWILLIAMS Thomas Newcastle on T 25 411

..............................
CHARLOTTE SMAIL MCLEOD
Pedigree
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
11 JAN 1828 Saint Cuthberts, Edinburgh, Midlothian, Scotland

Parents:
Father: DONALD MCLEOD
Family
Mother: CECILIA SMAIL

Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C119887 1826 - 1831 1066761 Film 6901046

Maureen

Hi, well its no wonder I can never find my Irish rellies they change there name when the wind blows. It looks like John was the brother of Thomas. This could be a bit of a breakthrough. I knew the 2 familys were linked but could never work out how. So this means Thomas married in Scotland. Any idea apart from maybe the LDS site, how I could get the marriage info. Thanks so much for all your help. I am not sure why Charlotte was living in west Derby, maybe if I could see the census image something might click.

If anyone could find any information in 1841, I could put this all together. I am going to Dublin soon and would like to have as much info as I can before going into the arcives in dublin. The problem is finding their parents, John has his father as Charles on his marriage, but of course no mothers name. If I am not misstaken Scottish marriage records do name both parents. I keep hoping that they would give an area in Ireland that they came from, so far no luck, apart from Derry which covered half of Ireland in the early 1800s.

Thanks once again
Kathy

Maureeen I do think your " long shot" 1851 has to tie in....dont you think?

Maybe the connection for the brothes Thomas and John could have been cracked ?

1861 England
Name: Thomas Mc Williams
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1824
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil parish: Gateshead
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

View image
Registration district: Gateshead
Sub-registration district: Gateshead

Name Age
Thomas Mc Williams 37...Labourer...Ireland
Elizabeth Mc Williams 34....Scotland
John Mc Williams 13
Cissey Mc Williams 11
Mary Mc Williams 8

Address...New Greenwick

Misty x

Good one,Misty!! I was beginning to wonder where she was!!

Maureen

Could this be your Charlotte...

1861
Name: Charlotte McWilliam
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Niece
Gender: Female
Where born: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Civil parish: Great Crosby
Ecclesiastical parish: Sephton
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

View image
Registration district: West Derby
Sub-registration district: Crosby

Name Age
Thomas Irvine 48...Shipping Agent....Lancaster, Lancashire
Charlotte Smail Irvine 33....Scotland, Edinbrough
Thomas Sebey Irvine 10.....Liverpool
Charlotte McWilliam 9
Mary O'Brien 19.....Domestic Ser...Ireland, Dublin
Thomas Grimley 21....Groom...Ireland, Amagh

Looking at original.....Thomas Grimley appears to be in a house on his own...

So looks as if Elizabeth McWilliams and Charlotte Irvine were sister's...born in Scotland !!

Misty x

Long shot??
1851 Ancestry
Name: John Williamson
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1826
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Ireland
Civil parish: Gateshead
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Registration district: Gateshead
Sub-registration district: Gateshead
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 45
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Williamson 29
Elizabeth Williamson 26
John Williamson 3
Cecilia Williamson 2
John Williamson 25
Arnold McLeod 55
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2402; Folio: 512; Page: 12

Maureen

Hi, thanks to everyone who has taken the time to help me with this one, I cant thank you enough.

I now have the 187/61 census info. Although Charlotte is not on the 1861 census her birth place in 1871 is Gateshead Durham, I dont know where she was when the census wad taken in 1861. So I wonder if anyone can find them in 1851/41. They would have been in the same area. I am still trying to tie them in with my main McWilliams line, there is a link if only I could piece it together. Recap, John McWilliams was my gggreat grandfather born Ireland 1825c. His childrens godmother was Charlotte McWilliams, I can not find a birth for her but she is on the 1871 census, she married Thomas Duffy 1874 and died later the same year. I would like to find if her father Thomas is the brother of my John.
Please help if you can

Kathy

Have sent 1871 image, as Maureen posted, Thomas was b Ireland, Elizabeth b Scotland.

for info marriage to thomas Duffy
Marriages Mar 1874 (>99%)
McWilliams Charlotte Gateshead 10a 1068

you should get father's name from the certificate

Closest I can see:
1861 FMP
MCWILLIAMS, Thomas Head Married M 37 1824 Labourer
Ireland
MCWILLIAMS, Elizabeth Wife Married F 34 1827
Scotland
MCWILLIAMS, John Son M 13 1848
Newcastle on Tyne
MCWILLIAMS, Cissey Daughter F 11 1850
Newcastle on Tyne
MCWILLIAMS, Mary Daughter F 8 1853
Newcastle on Tyne
RG number: RG09 Piece: 3804 Folio: 23 Page: 7

Reg. District: Gateshead Sub District: 2 Gateshead
Enum. District: 20 Ecclesiastical District: St Marys
Parish: Gateshead City/Municipal Borough: Gateshead
Address: New Greenwich, Gateshead
County: Durham


Maureen

EDIT: Hmmm-maybe not them. I thought that Cissey might be Charlotte,but she's likely this one:
Deaths Sep 1867 (>99%)
McWilliams Cecilia 17 Gateshead 10a 393

Sorry.

Hi, I found a marriag for charlotte in march 1874, which ties in with the parish records as well as the 1871 census kieth found. I could not find her in the 1881 census so I checked the MBD I found a death for charlotte duffy age 24 in dec 1874. The age is a bit out but I think it could be her. I need to look at census for her parents as posted by kieth. Ant further help please get in touch

Kathy

Hi I have just found a Charlotte McWilliams married to Thomas Duffy, he is also named as a godfather on the parish records along with Charlotte, a bit progress. Can anyone find her in 1861, Kieth an you send me the census page for 1871, I can let you have my email address. I still have to work out how the 2 amilys are related but its a step closer. If anyone can find John and Thomas McWilliams together in 1841/51/61 I might find they were brothers, well I live in hope.

Thanks for your help
Kathy

Hi Dinice, the birth is for the daughter of John and Mary, I have the parish record, thanks.

Hi Kieth, you might have her in 1871, can you tell me if her parents were from Ireland please

Thanks
Kathy

Name: Charlotte McWilliams
Year of Registration: 1872
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Gateshead
County: Durham, Tyne and Wear
Volume: 10a
Page: 887

What about this one in 1871?

Name: Charlotte Mc Williams
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1852
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: Gateshead, Durham, England
Civil parish: Gateshead
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Gateshead
County/Island: Durham
Country: England
Registration district: Gateshead
Sub-registration district: Gateshead
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Household schedule number: 185
Household Members:
Name Age
Thomas Mc Williams 46
Elizabeth Mc Williams 45
Charlotte Mc Williams 19
Mary Mc Williams 18
Cisila Boyle 7

RG10; Piece: 5055; Folio: 18; Page: 29;

She appears to be the only one around Gateshead in 1871.

Hi, if anyone is up for a challenge then this is it. I have my gggrandfather as John McWilliams, he married Mary Ann Turner in 1854 in Newcastle Northumberland. They had several children most were born in Gateshead Durham. I have 4 copies of parish records for the children. The question is, the godmother on the record is named as Charlotte McWilliams. The records I have are from 1868 to 1874, all in Gateshead. John gave his birthplace as Ireland in census which I have from 1861 to 1891, although he missed the ‘Mc’ from his name in some census. What I need to find is the Godmother as I think she may be his sister or she was married to his brother. So I need to find a Charlotte McWilliams who was of age in census 1861/71/81/91, she would be living in the same area, Gateshead, or Newcastle. I will now look at the 1881 on the LDS. I don’t have access to the other census. I have never found John with any family in earlier census. As he came from Ireland its a bit of a lost cause, although he gave his fathers name as Charles on his marriage record.

If anyone can help please do
Kathy