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And why I was bringing it back to the forefront..

to highlight it again,to bring it to attention again..

As the best one in my lowly opinion as it is the child with her on 1911.
We hope

That would be why I posted that one on page 1, Viv. ;)

For emphasis, though -- getting the birth cert would clarify whether that's the right husband/son ... one would hope ... and if so what surname Clara declared ...

This childs birth cert for his mothers name?


Births Mar 1897 (>99%)
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Russell Edward Bond W. Derby 8b 282

Dear Janey,

I believe I have the correct BC for clara cairns stating, Father Patrick Cairns, mother Ellen Cairns formally Holden.

I've sent for the marriage lines you suggested with the spelling Kearns.

All census seem correct as clara Cairns then Russell, I wonder if its worth sending for one of the Russell births to see Mothers name on it.

So Clara cairns all correct up until my GD baptism were she becomes clara Sutton now she might not have been present at Baptism due to her ill health and someone else give details???

HOWEVER WHEN SHE DIED in brownlow hill workhouse she was placed there by her brother as Sarah Russell one week later my Gd placed there as an orphan as Joseph Russell as the Russell's didn't want to have an illegitimate child (very religious those Bond Russell's.

In 1911 census she is Russell and my GD Joe Russell???

When me Gd got married the found his baptismal record and as it stated Sutton an (affidavit) was signed that he was known as Joe Russell and his marriage lines show this, so the rest of his life he was that.

Thank you here's hoping Maria

John Russell 8b 616
"Unfortunatly this ref does not appear to relate to you as the birth date is not 27/01/09 and the mothers name is not Clara cairns"

No, they wouldn't have checked for a Clara Russell, since you specified Cairns.

I'm never for saving the very little money one saves by specifying details that may be wrong. The birthdate could have been wrong, she might have spelled it Kearns ...


I'm still not entirely clear. You're looking for John births, and you say Joe was correct and he was admitted to the orphanage as Joseph, so the name is John Joseph, you think?

I have to report absolutely no luck at all under any surname too, I'm afraid!

This is her in 1881 in Liverpool?


Patrick Cairns 40
Ellen Cairns 37
Ellen E. Cairns 12
Clara Cairns 10
Albert Cairns 5
Walter Cairns 6
Mary F. Cairns 3 - Joe's aunt Mary?


Marriages Sep 1864
Dunse Robert Liverpool 8b 603
> Holden Ellen Liverpool 8b 603
> Kearns Patrick Liverpool 8b 603
King Elizabeth Liverpool 8b 603

Births Mar 1871
Cairns Clara W. Derby 8b 535


So they were married well before Clara was born ... so the Russell + Holden marriage may be pure coincidence.

Aaaargh.

"why did he Marry Clara Holden as this was her mothers maiden name, her name in all the censuses are Clara Cairns"

If we had known this before ...

And her name at birth? Perhaps Holden, her mother not (yet) being married to Cairns? Have you looked for her birth?

Or vice versa - she could been born Cairns and had a first marriage to Holden.

It doesn't really matter that Russell isn't your own line -- if you're looking for Clara you really do have to find every trace of her.

The certificate of her marriage to Russell, if she was married to Russell, would state her father's name, if she knew it and declared it. That's a rather useful piece of info.

You Guys are Fab, where do i begin.
Clara Cairns Married Edward Russell not sure of year, I havent looked for marriage lines as Russell not my GD father.
The 1901 census is correct, and Russell died after his last child was born so after 1901. Also the 1911 census is correct calling him JOE.

Then my GD was born 1909 his mum Clara Russell nee cairns died 1919. He was 9 so we have no history. we have warehouse records saying his mum ?? Sarah Russell (I know another new name) died July 1919 he then went in one week later under the name Joseph Russell escorted by his aunt Mary Kearns (another spelling) and then put in an orphanage.

The birth records I have tried are

John Russell 8b 616
"Unfortunatly this ref does not appear to relate to you as the birth date is not 27/01/09 and the mothers name is not Clara cairns"

thats what GRO wrote do you think birthdate could be wrong as i'm only going off batism and will they have checked for a clara Russell do you think.
Gro also searched for John Joseph Sutton born 27th /1/09 father John mother clara to no avail.

I havent tried Sutton in Warrington or the Fredrick link.

The marriage Lines for Edward Bond Russell Looks interesting but why did he Marry Clara Holden as this was her mothers maiden name, her name in all the censuses are Clara Cairns ??

Thank you all for the help

Still desperate Maria.

This is getting weird

You are right Janey.
It would make it somewhat easier if we knew which births were ruled out,and where the name Cairns came from.

Gotta go.

There is this one, but I assume Maria has ruled it out:

Births Jun 1909
Sutton John W.Derby 8b 628


Maybe a list of the wrong birth certs that have been got ...

Had to pick them out one by one,sorry,been editing.

That Joe Russell in 1911 was indeed living with a Clara Russell.

RUSSELL CLARA 1874 37 West Derby Lancashire

?

Think I'll wait until the desperate Maria tells us what John/Joe's name was! -- i.e. what name he went by, married as, etc.

"he was told when he was little his father was called Sutton"
implies that his own surname wasn't Sutton ...

Interesting ...


Marriages Mar 1893
Hill William W. Derby 8b 696
? Holden Clara W. Derby 8b 696
Irvine Margaret W. Derby 8b 696
? Russell Edward Bond W.Derby 8b 696

Births Mar 1897
Russell Edward Bond W. Derby 8b 282


Birth matches the Edward in your 1901 household.

Where do you have the surname Cairns from?

Only two Sutton births suitable.

Births Mar 1909 (>99%)
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Sutton Joseph Warrington 8c 220
Sutton Joseph Frederick W. Derby 8b 295


And I think he was prob down as Joe on 1911?

HOUSEHOLD RUSSELL JOE M 1909 2 West Derby Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD RUSSELL EDWARD M 1897 14 West Derby Lancashire
HOUSEHOLD RUSSELL CLARA F 1874 37 West Derby Lancashire

Can you just clarify his name? John Joseph?


1901 Liverpool, for ref:

Edward Russell 30
Clara Russell 28
Mary Russell 7
Edward Russell 4
Clara Russell 3 months


Age is out, but is this the death?

Deaths Dec 1902
Russell Edward 35 Liverpool 8b 76


There is no Clara Cairns + Edward Russell marriage, is there?


Have you tried this one?

Births Jun 1909
Cairns John Wilburn Toxteth Park 8b 199

Desperate (Long story please forgive)

My Gfather was born Jan 1909.

Can't find BC anywhere, His mother Clara Russell nee Cairns born 1871 was married to an edward Russell and had a number of Children (liverpool) have found them on 1901 census, then this Russell Bloke died and clara had what we think is an illegitimate child my GD 1909 I have found them on 1911 census that gives us his birth year.

So Dead end, he was told when he was little his father was called Sutton and he knew where he was baptised.

So I got BR and here is what it said

Sutton Born 27/01/09 baptised 27/03/09

Joannes Josephus Sutton fili Joannes et Clarae Sutton olim Russell.

So it suggests she married Sutton however she is Russell on 1911 census therefore did she lie to priest. aaaahhh.

So there is my problem I have sent for numerous BC but to no avail. Any ideas I'm desperate.

Here's hoping Maria