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Thanks Sylvia,
I'll give it a try,
Mike.

Hi Mike


yes, you need to consider that one or both of them might have been born as early as 1782, and possibly as late as 1786/87


Just incidentally, I never search only on one year no matter where I am looking

...... I always search at least birth year +/- 2 years, and usually do +/- 5 years.




sylvia

Nudge.

Hi Sylvia & Jax,
This is the family, 1841 census is them, I'm not sure where the middle M. came from, think it was a difficult read off a fiche at the research centre,
Occupation as Cordwainer (shoemaker) is definitely correct also lower westwick street address.
Didn't know about the rounding down,
Therefore you are saying i should research from 1782?
Mike.

Children which you probably have

Name: John Cannon Copland
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 Apr 1817
Baptism/Christening Place: Norwich, St. Gregory, Norfolk, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Copland
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Frances Samson
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

must be the same son??

Name: John Samson Copland
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 07 Apr 1817
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Gregory, Norwich, Norfolk, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Copland
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Frances Samson
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:

not sure about this one, but think it must be a mistranscription, and fits in with William Samson birth

Name: William Sampson Coplin
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 21 Jul 1822
Baptism/Christening Place: St. Lawrence, Norwich, Norfolk, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: John Coplin
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Frances Coplin

Where did you get John's middle initial from? it is not mentioned on his marriage or the 1841 census or burial...if this is him?

Name: John Copland
Gender: Male
Burial Date: 06 Aug 1848
Burial Place: Norfolk, England


I also thought it unusual for them both to be 30+ before they married for the first time

Her surname probably should have been spelled Sampson ................ from the spelling used for William's seecond name.




sylvia

Frances' parents, from that same site


England Births and Christenings, 1538-1975

Name: Frances Samson
Gender: Female
Baptism/Christening Date: 30 May 1784
Baptism/Christening Place: SAINT GREGORY,NORWICH,NORFOLK,ENGLAND
Birth Date: 27 May 1784
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: William Samson
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Frances Knowles
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: C04803-1
System Origin: England-ODM
Source Film Number: 993653
Reference Number:






sylvia

from the beta.familysearch site

www.familysearch.org/#form=advanced-records


I discovered that William S Copland on the 1841 Census is shown on the 1851 Census as William Sampson Copland


therefore this marriage looks to be a good for for John and Francis


England Marriages, 1538–1973

Groom's Name: John Copland
Groom's Birth Date:
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age:
Bride's Name: Frances Samson
Bride's Birth Date:
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age:
Marriage Date: 16 Apr 1816
Marriage Place: St. Gregory, Norwich, Norfolk, England
Groom's Father's Name:
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name:
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I07366-4
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1517747
Reference Number: item 27 p 26





Of course, parents names are rarely shown on parish registers before 1837





sylvia

Just to recap ............ and to help me understand your family


Is this the 1841 Census???


1841 Census

Name: John Copland
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1786
Gender: Male
Where born: Norfolk, England

Civil parish: St Lawrence
Hundred: Norwich
County/Island: Norfolk
Country: England

Registration district: Norwich
Sub-registration district: West Wymer

John Copland 21 b.ca 1820, Norfolk, Cordwainer
John Copland 55 Cordwainer
Francis Copland 55 b.ca 1786, Norfolk
William S Copland 18 b.ca 1823, Norfolk, Apprentice Cordwainer

Address:- Lower Westwick Street




As Jax said, ages of adults over the age of 15 were supposed to be rounded down to the nearest 5. Most enumeators did that, some did not. This census is almost a mix! It really looks as though JohnSr and Francis were rounded down, but the two boys were not.



However this means that John and Francis could both have actually any age between 55 and 59, and thus been born in any year between1782 and 1786




sylvia

How do you know he was born 1786? do you have the death cert?

Even then his age could be incorrect.

I see from the 1841 they were both 55 which could mean they could have been 55- 59 as in that census the ages were sometimes rounded down

Thanks Jax,
Found that one and one or two others, but the birth date does'nt match,
Then again, that could be wrong??
Mike.

??

Name: John Copland
Gender: Male
Baptism/Christening Date: 10 Apr 1790
Baptism/Christening Place: Southburgh, Norfolk, England
Birth Date:
Birthplace:
Death Date:
Name Note:
Race:
Father's Name: Robert Copland
Father's Birthplace:
Father's Age:
Mother's Name: Phillis Copland
Mother's Birthplace:
Mother's Age:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: I04037-0
System Origin: England-EASy
Source Film Number: 1471296


Then again maybe there is'nt a baptism to be found

Hi Jax,
I have been looking on that site for about the last 3 hours,
Just can't see it !!
Mike. :-|

Have you tried at family search

https://www.familysearch.org/

Yes, i was at the record office today.

Well it seems like Karen has deleted her posts...have you tried looking for their baptisms?

jax

Hit a brick wall !!
Obtained marriage of John M. Copland x Francis Samson at St. Gregory's Church, Norwich, 16/4/1816. John born 1786. No parent's names given !!
I am still searching for his Parent's.
any help appreciated.
Mike.

Many thanks Karen,
Will try Family search .org. The church is now an arts centre,
But the parish records are still available so am now off there to view.
Regards,
Mike.

Karen, You are a star, My printer is working overtime.
Heather posi, I will check out parish records,
Best Regards,
Mike.