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One slim possibility.

The births index 1916-1983 has

Harold N Lawrence 1916 West Ham
Harold N Lawrence 1926 Birmingham
Harold NR Lawrence 1923 Romsey

Harold N R Lawrence married 1944 in Romsey.

Then there are 3 Harold N Lawrence marriages:

1944 in Wednesbury to Farmer - yours
1944 in Surrey to Butler
and
1963 in St Pancras to Birnie

I can't find a birth for the woman the 1963 Harold married. That could suggest Birnie was a first married name. ... No, there are two Lawrence-Birnie births.

Oh yes oh yes. I wasn't sure whether we knew when Violet died.

Violet died in 1962. Leaving Harold free to remarry.

A Harold N Lawrence married in 1963.

Coincidence? Could be. Or not.

There are also Birnie-Birnie births before 1963 that could be births to the Lawrence-Birnie couple who married in 1963. One in particular where the child has the same name as Ms Birnie who married Mr Lawrence.

I'm seeing that 1963 marriage as too much concidence. I'm going to PM you some more detailed info (as it is about living people).

I think the best we can do is hold on a few weeks for the searchable 1916-1983 death index that Ancestry keeps promising. That could provide some answers - either a death or no death for Harold, for starters. He would be over 80 now, of course.


We haven't looked any more at the birth NinjaLady found, have we?

Births Dec 1917
Lawrence Charles A Reynolds Aston 6d 766

-- who certainly looks like he could be a brother of your Harold. I don't see a death for him up to 1925, so he doesn't seem to have died in infancy like Esther's first two children.

Someone here at GR has a Charles Lawrence born 1917 in Birmingham in her tree. There was only the one born there that year. I'd try to contact that person for sure.

If that Charles was a sibling, one scenario would be that William Bayes was at the front and Esther became involved with Joseph Lawrence. And either she or he was not free to marry after that because of a pre-existing marriage.

I'm afraid I'm fresh out of other ideas at this point ...

Have we considered emigration??

LAWRENCE Harold 1926
1947 Birkenhead to Kenya Mombasa

I don't subscribe to findmypast so I can't see whether the image might say anything useful.


We all get to have one mysterious ancestor/branch in our tree! It was only by spending a loooong time on my own that I learned such a bag of tricks. ;)

Thank you so much for all your findings - I will now try and order certs from the info given to see if it throws anymore light on the situation. Very difficult as have no one to ask and he disappeared in 1945 when Janet was born. I am learning fast, but what is the best way to try and find out if Harold is still alive and if so where is he?

Janet would love to know and may even want to make contact with him as she is ill.

The Lawrence's are apprearing to be a bit of a mystery and it's not as cut and dry and previous relatives.

Thank you Jane for your help and I will re-read all of the thread and make relevant notes for the next part of the puzzle.

I hope one day to be able to help you all on your searches, but I am by no means anywhere near your expertise.

Thanks again and I'll be in touch.

For info, FreeBMD has corrected Harold's birth record in response to the correction I submitted:

Births Dec 1926
Lawrence Harold N Reynolds Birmingham N 6d 786


And for his parents' marriage --

FATHER - JOSEPH ARTHUR LAWRENCE
MOTHER - ESTHER JANE LAWRENCE (FORMERLY REYNOLDS)

-- I can't find one. Not by searching for any combination of given names / surnames or for either of them separately. Also no luck finding a previous marriage for Esther, in case she married Joseph under a different surname.

The only Esther Reynolds in Birmingham in 1911 is:

REYNOLDS ESTHER 1878 33 Birmingham Warwickshire

and that Esther would be a little old for our purposes.

And the only Joseph Arthur Lawrence

LAWRENCE JOSEPH ARTHUR 1910 6 MONTHS Aston Warwickshire

is a little young! (He is with parents Arthur and Elizabeth.)


This does look like the (only) likely birth for Esther, if she was born Reynolds:

Births Dec 1888
REYNOLDS Esther Jane Kidderminster 6c 222


Aha.

Marriages Sep 1909
BAYES William Thomas Kidderminster 6c 311
> REYNOLDS Esther Jane Kidderminster 6c 311
WAKEFIELD Albert Kidderminster 6c 311
WEAVERS Emily Minnie Kidderminster 6c 311

Births Dec 1912
Bayes Ivy M Reynolds Kidderminster 6c 390
Births Jun 1914
BAYES Charles T Reynolds Kidderminster 6c 152


But there is no subsequent marriage for an Esther Bayes.

There are WWI two deaths at the CWGC site for a W/Wiliam Bayes, but unfortunately neither one has details of age or family members.


So Joseph Lawrence and Esther Reynolds Bayes apparently did not marry -- but the interesting thing here is that Esther had two children before she partnered with Joseph. Oh, but sadly, they did not survive.


Ivy M Bayes, 1912 - but died 1913:

Deaths Jun 1913
Bayes Ivy M age:0 Kidderminster 6c 81

Charles T Bayes, 1914 - but died 1914

Deaths Jun 1914
Bayes Charles T age:0 Kidderminster 6c 78


But - Esther did have one other child; in the 1911 census:

BAYES WILLIAM THOMAS 1886 25 Kidderminster Worcestershire
BAYES ESTHER JANE 1888 23 Kidderminster Worcestershire
BAYES ETHEL MAY 1911 2 MONTHS Kidderminster Worcestershire

And there seems to be no death for Ethel May, as so far transcribed by FreeBMD. I don't see a marriage for her, though. ... I wonder whether she might have married (or died) as Lawrence ...


I *could* be chasing a completely wrong Esther, but she seems like the only one available!

Been ill so big delay on this. Anyway Harold's Birth Cert confirms the following:-
BORN 10/9/26 - ASTON - BIRMINGHAM
FATHER - JOSEPH ARTHUR LAWRENCE
MOTHER - ESTHER JANE LAWRENCE (FORMERLY REYNOLDS)

I will now try and find out any links with this info, any help greatly appreciated.

Just been reading your thread ~your JOHN FARMER were his parents THOMAS & SARAH?

Will be waiting eagerly for the birth cert - because there's no Joseph Lawrence + Reynolds marriage!

(For future ref, do give *all* the info you have - like the names from the marriage certificate - at the outset.)

Ms. Reynolds could have been a widow when she married (which means her surname on the birth records won't match her surname on her marriage record). We shall see!

Right, so here's the birth of Charles Arthur Lawrence, probably with the same mothers maiden surname as Harold Lawrence

Births Dec 1917 (>99%)
Lawrence Charles A Reynolds Aston 6d 766

Hi,
Thanks again. I have read all the info and as I've said I'm very new to this so trying to find my feet. Last night I have ordered Harold's birth cert from the GRO and then I will have the correct parents names.

If anyone comes across any other info, I would love to persue this.

I have Harold and Violets marriage cert already and this shows Harold's Father as Joseph Arthur Lawrence. It states it was also in the presence of Charles Arthur Lawrence, would I suspect must be a Brother?

Thanks for all your hints and tips - I have registered with Ancestry and using your info as learning as well as information.

Angie

Hi Angela

Did you get the name of Harold's father from the marriage certificate? If so, we're looking for a marriage of a JOSEPH ARTHUR LAWRENCE not an Albert H Lawrence.

There were several Joseph Lawrence's married in Aston from 1910 onwards but no Joseph A's.

Perhaps it might be an idea to buy the birth certificate first as suggested by Janey, to get the name of Harold's mother and then you will be able to trace the correct marriage.

fyi: FreeBMD is moving fast these days. It has accepted the correction for Harold's birth:


Reference is: 2009-08-2977
Submitted on: 2009-08-31 19:42:42
EventYearQuarter Births 1926 Dec
Current Entry: Lawrence,Harold N.,Reynolds,Pontypridd,11a,1016
Proposed Entry: Lawrence,Harold N.,Reynolds,Birmingham N,6d,786


Angie, it's hard to tell whether you read anything in this thread!

I gave you the info for ordering Howard's birth certificate to get his parents' names.

Name: Harold N Lawrence
Mother's Maiden Surname: Reynolds
Date of Registration: Oct Nov Dec 1926
Registration district: Birmingham N.
Registration county: Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 786


and a marriage that matches well, for his parents:

Name: Albert H Lawrence
Spouse: Reynolds
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1926
Registration district: Warwick
Registration county (inferred): Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 1925 *

Name: Annie E A Reynolds
Spouse Surname: Lawrence
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1926
Registration district: Warwick
Registration county (inferred): Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
>> Page Number: 1985

* Looking at the images, I think page 1925 is correct. If you want the certificate, I'd order it by Albert's details.


The more family names you have, the better the chance of finding someone related.

I could PM you a couple more names (Harold's siblings).

Hi All,
Thank you all for your assistance. As you can tell I am very new to all of this and keep moving 2 steps forward and 3 back due to my inexperience. I will try and explain what I have found so far and looking at your information, I agree with the B'ham entry you have found.

Harold was Violet's first husband and they had 2 children - Sidney born 9th July 1944 (died at approx 2 mths) and Janet who was born Dec 1945.

I only have a marriage cert showing the following for Harold and Violet:-
Married 3/2//44 Harold Norman Lawrence (17 years old) & Violet Farmer (21 years old). Harold's residence at the time of marriage was 10 Holte Rd Aston and his Father was Joseph Arthur Lawrence. Violet lived at 89 Barlow Road Wednesbury and her Father was John Farmer.

I also have the Birth and Death of Sidney.

The reason any info about Harold is so important is that my Mother has no living relatives to ask any information and can't find out if Harold is still alive. Shortly after Janet was born (my Mom's half Sister), Harold disappeared and no one knows of what happened to him. Violet died tragically in 1962, so my Mom only had 11 years where no questions were asked.

Any information about Harold, and/or 89 Barlow Road in Wednesbury will ensure that my Mom can fit some of the jigsaw pieces together that she has no one to ask.

I can't thank you all enough for the information you have given me, it's so nice to see on this site that everyone tries to help. I only hope that one day I am able to do the same. I just seem to be buying credits and ordering certificates and coming to dead ends. Any tips on a newbie would be greatly appreciated and written down.

Looking forward to reading any further threads.

Angie

Florence, really, that is simply wrong. If you read the sequence of events and the supporting birth and marriage registrations in the thread, you will understand.

I wonder whether Angela will return ...


Everybody's caught where I found the error in the FreeBMD transcription for Harold N Lawrence born 1926??

He was born in Birmingham, not Pontypridd (which FreeBMD has).

He is pretty certainly the person in question.

Name: Violet Farmer
Spouse Surname: Lawrence
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1944
Registration district: Wednesbury
Registration county (inferred): Staffordshire
Volume Number: 6b
Page Number: 1113
spouse Harold N Lawrence

The OP is confusing, but "Violet Farmer 1922 from Wednesbury" -- "1922" is Violet Farmer's year of birth.

I certainly thought 1922 was the marriage date when I first read it too.

A few more words when asking for help can make all the difference!


Just for clarity, this seems to be the Harold N Lawrence in question:


Name: Harold N Lawrence
Mother's Maiden Surname: Reynolds
Date of Registration: Oct Nov Dec 1926
Registration district: Birmingham N.
Registration county: Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 786


and a marriage that matches well:

Name: Albert H Lawrence
Spouse: Reynolds
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1926
Registration district: Warwick
Registration county (inferred): Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 1925

... but returns no spouse ... I suspect another mistranscription:

Name: Annie E A Reynolds
Spouse Surname: Lawrence
Date of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep 1926
Registration district: Warwick
Registration county (inferred): Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
>> Page Number: 1985


The error is repeated at FreeBMD so must be in the GRO index itself.

His children werent born til the 1940,s so he must have been born in the late 1920,s

so Sidney was born 1944
Name: Sidney H Lawrence
Mother's Maiden Surname: Farmer
Date of Registration: Jul Aug Sep 1944
Registration district: W Bromsich
Registration county: Staffordshire
Volume Number: 6b
Page Number: 1189

and janet 1945

Ancestry has this one:

Name: Harold N Lawrence
Mother's Maiden Surname: Reynolds
Date of Registration: Oct Nov Dec 1926
Registration district: Birmingham N.
Registration county: Warwickshire
Volume Number: 6d
Page Number: 786

But not the Pontypridd one.

Odd.


edit - FreeBMD screwed that one up royally. The Pontypridd registration details are for a Henry two lines below in the index.

**The Birmingham N. details are correct.** This looks like your man.

I have submitted a correction to FreeBMD.

A possible marriage to match the Pontypridd birth:

Name: Alfred J Lawrence
Spouse: Sarah H Reynolds
Date of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar 1921
Registration district: Pontypridd
Registration county (inferred): Glamorgan
Volume Number: 11a
Page Number: 1399


If that Alfred matches the father on the 1944 marriage certificate?

There were two Harold N Lawrences born since 1920

Births Jun 1923 (>99%)
Lawrence Harold N R Lawrence Romsey 2c 213

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1926 (>99%)
Lawrence Harold N Reynolds Pontypridd 11a 1016

If he was only 17 when he married then its more likely to be the 1926 birth. Where did you get his age from? The marriage certificate? If so that would give the name of his father and his occupation.