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My pleasure :-)

Hope the certs show up something new (or at least something interesting!)

Hi Cherilyn

That was a huge surprise to me about the twins. My family will be totally baffled by it. I can't find a death for John, but he never was talked about by his twin sister (my great great grandmother) so it will be a HUGE shock to them. Thanks for that website. I've gone and ordered three certificates, in the hope to uncovering a bit more of the mystery.

I actually think that william and Elizabeth were never married given Elizabeth's advanced age, maybe she didn't care about getting married. Who knows! The fact that every certificate has given a different date or place makes me think they are making up dates and places to satisfy the officials and to not cast shame on the family?

Thanks for all your help on this. I really do appreciate it. You've been a massive help to me!
Belinda

Hi Belinda

Check out the site http://bdmhistoricalrecords.identityservices.govt.nz/search/

If you search on births for surname LUFF (leave other fields blank) from 01/01/1870 to 01/01/1872 you will see the births I mean. Given Eliza and John LUFF have consecutive birth registration numbers I would say it would have to be an absolutely HUGE coincidence for them NOT to be twins!

Many of the LUFF marriages show with groom in bride's surname field and no bride given so you need to be a bit creative in searching. Having said that, no marriage for Wm.

Maybe they never were formally married?

Hi Cherylyn

Yes the Eliza is the correct one but as far as I know she didn't have a twin called John? John Thomas did die in NZ at a young age. I haven't got ever single certificate as I thought they wouldn't provide me with much extra, but maybe now I'll have to get every certificate there is?

I'm wondering if there is a marriage for a William Luff in NZ married to Elizabeth somebody, maybe not Gillespie. If so I might risk it and order it. Although they seem to say they were married in Sydney so I don't think they would lie would they?

Belinda

Hi Belinda

I can't see Elizabeth Jane's birth in 1871 in NZ, though there is an Eliza LUFF born that year (reg 6110) and if this is her she had a twin named John (reg 6111).

Is the John Thos b. 1873 Vic the same one who died in NZ aged 6 yrs in 1879 (reg 3842)? (http://bdmhistoricalrecords.identityservices.govt.nz/search/)

William Henry and Elizabeth's kids are:

Elizabeth Jane Luff born 25/06/1871 in Thames, NZ
John Thomas Luff born 07/07/1873 in Sandhurst, Bendigo, Australia
James Robert Luff born 26/06/1876 in Christchurch, NZ

If William is attached to the family in London that I suspect he is tied into then his parents are John and Elizabeth (which match his kids above) and he has a sibling Susannah Jane (the Jane is above) and Thomas Charles (Thomas is also above). No Robert, but that could have come from Elizabeth Gillespie's side I guess.

That is a good point that Elizabeth could have been married previously but as far as I know she didn't have any children from a previous marriage and there is still not a single William Luff who married in hte time period 1868-1871 in NSW as they claimed. I guess I could check the NZ records to make sure they are not there.

A Mrs LUFF, aged 39, travelled from Victoria to NZ in Jan 1875 aboard 'Otago'.

And here's one born in Sandhurst, Victoria! But no marriage there.

Surname: LUFF
Given Names: John Thomas
Event: B
Father: Wm Hy
Mother: Elizabeth GILLESPIE
Birth Place: SHURST
Year: 1873
Reg Number: 19690

I think perhaps he was following the gold....

There is a birth in NZ that looks like a child of 'your' Wm Hy & Elizabeth, in 1876 - James Robert LUFF, parents as above, reg 10160. Perhaps this one would help?

Notably, there was also an Arthur LUFF and John LUFF in NZ at the same time. Their children featured the names John, James, Richard, Robert and Henry. Also Jemima?

Arthur LUFF m. Lucy in 1860 (reg 914) and John LUFF m. Ellen CULLIMORE in 1878 (reg 1283). Also NZ marriages for Joseph LUFF in 1866 (reg 2084) and Andrew LUFF in 1859 (reg 568). Adelaide Eliza LUFF m. James SLATER in 1876 (reg 1328).

Given Elizabeth's year of birth I can't help wondering if her marriage to Wm was her 2nd marriage - so she would not have married as GIllespie...

Were any of the children born in NSW?

Can you give us the childrens names and birthdates? Might help to narrow down some searches.

Regards Linda :)

Thanks hoping. I am sure one of them is her but I can't prove it. The one with James sounds likely as one of the children is named James, but they never used last names as middle names for their children, so I can't tell which family Elizabeth belongs to really!

As for the Eliza Luff on the ship, well their daughter was Eliza but she was born in 1871, so can't be the same person.

Worth a try though!

Not being terribly helpful here but if one of the surnames was passed on?:


4 05/10/1832 GILLESPIE ELIZABETH JAMES GILLESPIE/JANET STORRIE FR4546 F Glasgow GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 644/001 0330 0410 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

5 07/04/1832 GILLESPIE ELIZABETH ERSKINE GILLESPIE/ELIZABETH MCNAUGHTON F Perth /PERTH 387/ 0260 0053 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

6 30/03/1834 GILLESPIE ELIZABETH ANDREW GILLESPIE/MARY SMITH FR706 F Denny /STIRLING 476/ 0030 0150 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

7 15/01/1836 GILLESPIE ELIZABETH JAMES GILLESPIE/MARGARET THOMSON FR503 F Cargill /PERTH 338/ 0030 0023 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

8 02/12/1836 GILLESPIE ELIZABETH JOHN GILLESPIE/MARY CAMPBELL FR402 U Penninghame /WIGTOWN 895/ 0020 0115 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

9 07/03/1833 GILLESPIE ELIZABETH COCKB ALEXANDER GILLESPIE/HELEN LAWSON FR620CH2V35 F Canongate EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/003 0270 0103 VIEW (5 CREDITS) ORDER

10 07/03/1833 GILLESPIE ELIZABETH COCKB ALEXANDER GILLESPIE/HELEN LAWSON FR620CH2V35 F Canongate Scroll Reg. EDINBURGH CITY/MIDLOTHIAN 685/C00 0010 No Image ORDER

11 19/10/1834 GILLESPIE ELIZABETH ROBER PETER GILLESPIE/CHRISTINA ROBERTSON FR2536 CHILD 4 F Barony GLASGOW CITY/LANARK 622/ 0090 0513

Two in glasgow??!!

Regards Linda :)

Probably nothing but there is this on ancestry, the interesting thing is that eliza gives her parents as william and elizabeth?

Name: Eliza Luff
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Age: 26
Voyage Arrival Date: 22 Jan 1855
Vessel Name: Queen Of England
Origin Location: Little Barford, Bedford

Regards Linda :)

Selena, I have a strong feeling that this is my William in london as well, as the family names seem to match those of his children. However I can't prove this until I find a marriage certificate with at least his father's name on it. Or even another family member living near him in Australia or NZ would help trace back I guess.

No I have searched shipping records in vain and can't seem to find them. Not everyone is on the records. I've even searched newspapers both in NZ and Australia for any info there. I wonder though if there is an Australia Electoral roll I can search.

Belinda .
Death cert information is only as good as the informant knew it to be.

Have you got William entering New Zealand or Australia on any ships list?

Got this from www.familysearch.org. Not what you asked for but does give his year of birth

WILLIAM HENRY LUFF
Birth: 04 MAR 1831

Christening: 06 APR 1831 Saint Matthew, Bethnal Green, London, England

Father: JOHN LUFF
Mother: ELIZABETH

I have been trying to research a couple, William Henry Luff (born London 1831-35) and his wife Elizabeth Gillespie (born Glasgow 1829-1836) but every certificate I look at has different details.

Their death certificates have that they were married on the West Coast of the South Island of NZ. One in particular names Kumara as the place of marriage, but there is not a single marriage for Luff and Gilliespie in the whole NZ records.

Then their children's birth certificates give their marriage place as Sydney Australia, on in Feb 1870 and the other in March 1869 but when I search the records there is no such marriage for the whole of NSW. I'm starting to think that they never married at all and have just fabricated dates and places on certificates to cover the shame. I am finding that without the marriage certificate I will never be able to trace the family further and it is very frustrating! The different certificates also give their ages as different every time, some give Eliza beth as older and some younger!!!!

Has anyone else had this at all?