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Rita,

The marriages could have taken place in either parish. Sometimes the banns were called out in both the bride and the groom's.

The children's baptisms took place in Morebattle Gateshaw Associate Session Church. This would have been a non conformist church (separate from the established church which was the Church of Scotland)

The records for Gateshaw will be held in Edinburgh at the main records office.

For information on Gateshaw:
https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Morebattle,_Roxburghshire,_Scotland

It may be the marriages for your family could be on these records but unfortunately, they are held in Edinburgh and you can not access them on the web.

Helen

Helen
would it have been likely that the marriages would take place in the parish of the bride or groom?, if this were the case there may be another avenue to search

Rita

Helen,
Thanks for all your digging and your time it's much appreciated, it looks like the search for the name Finlie will not be resolved.
look out for me I'm sure to be back with more queries before too long.


Tom thanks for your advice also

regards Rita

Rita,

All the Scottish certificates are the same format.

I just thought it odd that a marriage date and place were not noted ... especially since on the 1851 census details, Agnes says she is married. Likewise, on the 1851 James also says he is married.

I found something of interest regarding marriages in linton.

https://wiki.familysearch.org/en/Linton,_Roxburghshire,_Scotland

Apparently, only two records for marriages survive for Linton.

Established Church—Old Parochial Registers
Years Covered
Births: 1732-1854
Marriages: 1818-1854
Deaths: No entries

Condition of Original Registers—

Marriages: Only two entries, 1818 and 1829 prior to February 1836.

If James and Agnes Hogarth OR Robert and Agnes Finlie were married in Linton, then it looks likely the record of their marriage may not have survived.

Helen

If the date and place of marriage is not on a Scottish birth certificate, but both parents names are then usually it is because they are not married at the time of the birth. If unmarried, the fathers details are only added if he attends the registration and signs the register with the mother.

If the father does not attend then his details cannot be entered but the mother is still allowed to give the baby the fathers surmane. In older days the word illigitimate was also added thought this practice is no longer carried out. Even today when I register a birth in Scotland the father's name is only given if he attends and no marriage date will show if they are not married.

A good indication also is if the (ms) maiden surname features after the mothers first surname.

If she was born Black and Married a Mr White then her details would show as Mary Black (ms) or White. A date and place of marriage would then be given at the bottom

If she was born Black and did not marry but assumed the name of her live in partner Mr Black then her details would show as Mary Black or White and there would be no date of marriage.

Tom

Helen,
col 4 says
Name, Surname,and Rank or Profession of Father

I wonder if it is the same format as you have got. This entry is a down load of the 5 credit view from Scotlands People it has 3 entries per page. I don,t know of a way of pasting and copying this for you to see otherwise i would send it to you.

however I am about to study the further details you sent me and have printed it off so that I can work through it.

As you say the census details can be out and so could my HWTree.

Rita,

The marriage date should be in column 4 - (Heading: Date and place of parents marriage) I've had another look through all my certificates and it's there every time ...

The only time it's not mentioned is if the parents were un-married or the child's father is not mentioned.

(Not present - alongside the father's signature just means he was not present at the time of the birth)



The information for the birth of Margaret Young came from the IGI. This is an 'extracted record' which means it can be relied on.


MARGARET YOUNG
Female

Event(s):
Birth:
Christening:
30 JUL 1854 Gateshaw Associate Session, Morebattle, Roxburgh, Scotland

Parents:
Father: JAMES YOUNG
Mother: AGNES HOGGARTH

Messages:
Extracted birth or christening record for the locality listed in the record. The source records are usually arranged chronologically by the birth or christening date.

Source Information:
Batch No.: Dates: Source Call No.: Type: Printout Call No.: Type:
C191061 1775 - 1866 0889486 Film 6901842 Film
C191061 1900 - 1907 0889486 Film 6901842 Film

The census ages are not reliable .... they can be out by a good few years either side.

Not sure about the hand written family tree information. As the Margaret mentioned above was baptised on the 30/7/1854 could it be the 1856 on your record may be 1854. This would mean Margaret was baptised three days after her birth. Just a thought...

Helen

Helen
I must say the script is hard to read but it says Name/ Year Month Date and Time, Morebattle below/ M for male / Name and profession of Father/ Mothers Name Maiden Name/ Signature of Father, under this can't make it out think it says not present? last col. says Year Month Day Morebattle and Registrars Signature
As for Margaret I have her down on the 1861 Cencus at Morebattle age 6 and the 1871 Census age 16 And on my written tree I have her D.O.B as 27/06/1856
Rita

Rita,

Regarding no mention of the marriage date for James and Agnes on Adam and Andrew's birth certificate. I've loads of birth certificates and all of them have the marriage date and marriage location recorded (under the parents names) I find it odd that they're not mentioned on your certificates.

Does the certificate say; Agnes Young (m.s. Hogarth) ?



As mentioned, Margaret was born in 1852 You won't find an official birth certificate in Scotland before 1855. I know it was earlier in England.

You've made good progress as you say with this research.

Helen

Helen

The birth cert. did not give any indication of James and Agnes marriage it did give maiden name of Hogarth for Agnes, also fathers name and occupation as Hind, at the time of Adams birth and agricultural labourer on Andrews cert., date of birth and date of registration. Gateshaw was on Adams cert and Morebattle on Andrews. I hoped to get a copy of their sister Margaret as I have her down as 1856, however I viewed it only to find it was an Ann Margaret with different parents. no others were offered on dates between 1855-1857, I am now intouch with her present day family in Australia and was hoping to surpise them with the copy of her birth. I'll keep trying. I feel very happy with the progress made today with your help
Thanks Rita

Rita,

Glad you got the birth certificates ... what did they say about the marriage date and place for the parents, James and Agnes ?

You won't be able to get Margaret's birth certificate from Scotlandspeople. She was born before 1855 when official registration began.

Margaret Young
Christening: 30th July 1854
Gateshaw Associate Session, Morebattle, Roxburgh

You would only be able to see her baptismal record on the Old Parish Registers, Births and Baptisms section of Scotlandspeople. The information on these records vary .... sometimes very little ... sometimes a bit more.

Likewise for James Christening:

James Young
Christening: 26th September 1852
Gateshaw Associate Session, Morebattle, Roxburgh

Parents: James Young and Agnes Hoggarth

Hi Helen,
I have downloaded the birth certificates of Adam and brother Andrew but was unscessful with Margaret 1856c both give James Young and Agnes Hogarth as parents. Thanks rita

Hi Helen,
You have been such a help, I would never have known to look on Adam 1860 birth certificate. I will search and download it thanks again for the tip I will post details here if sucessful
regards Rita

Rita,

I have had a look for the marriage of James and Agnes Hogarth using various spellings and can't find them anywhere.

A possible solution is to download one of their children's birth certificates from Scotlandspeople. The Scottish birth certificates (post 1855) also register the date of the parents marriage. This could be the answer to the marriage query.

eg.

Adam Young
1860
County: Roxburgh
District: Morebattle


For ref:

1851 Scotland Census
about Agnes Hogarth
Name: Agnes Hogarth
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1827
Relationship: Daughter
Father's Name: James
Mother's Name: Margaret
Gender: Female
Where born: Eckford, Roxburgh
Parish Number: 801
Civil parish: Morebattle
County: Roxburghshire
Address: Morebattle Braes
Occupation: Wife Of Ag Lab
ED: 2
Page: 5 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 22
Line: 20
Roll: CSSCT1851_203
Household Members:
Name Age
James Hogarth 51
Margaret Hogarth 50
Agnes Hogarth 24
Isabel Hogarth 21
Thomas Hogarth 17
James Wilson 23
Henry Liaster 25
Robert Young 3 Mo
John Wilson 3 Mo


Assuming your James Young is one of the two already given on the 1851 census. The one who says he was born in Morebattle is 'unmarried' The one who says he was born in Linton is 'Married'

If you ask me, I would say, it's almost certain Agnes is married to James Young who is working away from home as an Ag Lab. Agnes' father must have put her down on the census form under her maiden name of Hogarth. Agnes however states she is the 'wife' on an Ag Lab.

Hi Helen, the James you mentioned below aged 11, I have seen myself and have often wondered. It could fit in that the Dicksons maybe relatives, I had never found the family as you listed them below in the 1841 census, then in the 1851 census as you point out he could have been working away from home. I have never been able to Qualify James marriage to Agnes Hogarth 1827c from Eckford but she has a son Robert 3 months old in the 1851 census whilst living with her parents. What a web of intrigue, thanks again for your help it is good to have someone to compare theories with
Rita

This may be James:


1851 Scotland Census
about James Young
Name: James Young
Age: 20
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1831
Relationship: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Morebattle, Roxburgh
Parish Number: 791
Civil parish: Hownam
County: Roxburghshire
Address: Philogar Hillhead
Occupation: Labourer
ED: 1
Page: 1 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 1
Line: 4
Roll: CSSCT1851_201
Household Members:
Name Age
John Hall 27
Margaret Hall 23
Thomas Hall 11 Mo
James Young 20


Or this.... born in Linton


1851 Scotland Census
about James Young
Name: James Young
Age: 23
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1828
Relationship: Servant
Gender: Male
Where born: Linton, Roxburgh
Parish Number: 801
Civil parish: Morebattle
County: Roxburghshire
Address: Mounhaugh
Occupation: Ag Lab
ED: 6
Page: 4 (click to see others on page)
Household schedule number: 12
Line: 4
Roll: CSSCT1851_203
Household Members:
Name Age
Walter Hindmarsh 59
Isabella Hindmarsh 75
James Young 23
Agnes Hall 26

This may be James living in Linton ..... maybe he was visiting this family and stayed overnight. Or the Dicksons may be related to the Youngs and James is a relative.


1841 Scotland Census
about James Young
Name: James Young
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
Gender: Male
Where born: Roxburghshire, Scotland

Civil parish: Linton
County: Roxburghshire
Address: Easterstead
Parish Number: 796
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
William Dickson 66
Mary Dickson 55
James Dickson 30
John Dickson 25
Agnes Dickson 15
Margaret Dickson 10
Margaret Laidlaw 58
James Young 11
Elisabeth Walker 7

There is no mention of Agnes's maiden name. I've searched the IGI looking for a possible marriage for her and Robert and there is no sign.

I found the mention of the death for Agnes on Scotlandspeople. Variation on the name Finlie .... Finlay. However, I can find no mention of Robert and Agnes after the 1851 census and the death is in 1876. Either this death is not the correct one ... or the census for 1861 and 1871 have been untranscribed due to various reasons.

Helen thankyou!!,
it looked promising but the central figure missing in that group would have been a son James 1831c (my GGgrandfather). I only have part of a hand written sheet with tree details, its a bit of a puzzle, the mention of an Isabella would be new to me, although the name Isabella did feature further down the tree (daughter to James 1831c). James is on a census in 1871 in Betchworth Surrey with his family and gives Linton as his place of birth. Did the entry include Agnes maiden name? Thanks again for all your help
Rita

Possible:

1841 Scotland Census
about Agnes Young
Name: Agnes Young
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Female
Where born: Roxburghshire, Scotland

Civil parish: Linton
County: Roxburghshire
Address: Old Graden
Parish Number: 796
Neighbors: View others on page

Household Members: Name Age
Robert Young
35
Agnes Young
30
Mary Young
15
William Young
14
Isabella Young
9
Robert Young
7
Adam Young
5




1851 Scotland Census
about Agnes Young
Name: Agnes Young
Age: 46
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1805
Relationship: Wife
Spouse's Name: Robert
Gender: Female
Where born: Morebattle, Roxburghshire
Parish Number: 811
Civil parish: Yetholm
Town: Country District
County: Roxburghshire
Address: Cherrytrees
Occupation: Hind's Wife
ED: 4
Page: 13 (click to see others on page)

Household schedule number: 41
Line: 9
Roll: CSSCT1851_204
Household Members: Name Age
Robert Young
48
Agnes Young
46
Mary Young
25
William Young
23
Isabella Young
18
Adam Young
14
John Fair
1

Robert born in Jedburgh,
Children all born in Linton, Roxburghshire
John Fair is a grandson

Mary Young and John Fair
Marriage
14th December 1850
Free Church, Morebattle, Roxburgh

trying to find any information at all for an Agnes Finlie born 1800c, died 24/08/1876 marrried to a Robert Young I have them on a hand written tree that has recently come into my possession, their children were Mary (no date),William 1820c, James1831c, Robert 1835c and Adam (no date) the sons with dates I have got information on but cannot find anything for the parents. Any ideas Please. I have tried ScotlandsPeople More battle is the area children come from.