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Hello all,
I am trying to work around a block in my tree, relating to my great great grandparents and the 1841 and 1851 census. I had some very useful help from this site in August of last year, relating to this, though I now have some more information.
They were Arthur and Mary Jane Varnham, stationers in the Strand and on Walworth Road, They appear to have lived in Bermondsey, Wandsworth, Westminster, Kennington and Newington at various times. Mary Jane was born approx 1811 in Plymouth. Arthur is more problematic, since I have a death certificate from 1858 (Bedford Street, Covent Garden) listing him aged 75 years, which would make him very old to father 5 children between 1834 and 1849 (none of whom are on the FreeBMD index). Their eldest daughter was my great great grandmother, Marianne, born in Lambeth, Surrey in 1834.
The death certificate lists the informant of Arthur's death as Ann Day and she appears on the 1861 census as a servant to Mary Jane Varnham and 4 of her children.
I have a marriage certificate in 1853 between Arthur Varnham (stationer) and Mary Jane Roberts, both listed as of full age but curiously as bachelor and spinster (since there is an Arhur Varnham, stationer, on the 1851 census listed as a widower,

Their fathers were listed as John Varnham (gent) and Peter Roberts (master in the navy). Could someone search the 1841 and 1851 census for me for these 2 men and for Mary Jane Roberts?

Kind regards and many thanks in advance
Greg

Just so I understand, are you saying they married almost 20 years after the first child?

Rose

1861 for reference:

1861 England Census
about Arthur Varnham
Name: Arthur Varnham
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1840
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: M J
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England
Civil Parish: Westminster St Paul Covent Garden
County/Island: Middlesex
Country: England
Registration district: Strand
Sub-registration district: St Mary le Strand
ED, institution, or vessel: 1
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 256
Household Members: Name Age
M J Varnham 47
Ellen Varnham 23
Arthur Varnham 21
Jessee Varnham 17
Walter Varnham 12
Anne Day 53
Susan Barnes 61

Rose

Hello Rose,
This is my big concern, I keep finding inconsistencies but there appear to be few alternatives. There could be 2 generations of Arthur Varnhams or the children could have been from a first marriage from either. Though, the marriage certificate shows them both as previously unmarried and also lists Arthur's father as John.
Thanks
Greg

Who were the witnesses to the marriage?

Rose

And this is the Arthur you mention from 1851:

1851 England Census
about Arther Varnham
Name: Arther Varnham
Age: 63
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1788
Relation: Brother
Gender: Male
Where born: Bermondsey
Civil Parish: Wandsworth
Ecclesiastical parish: St Anne
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Occupation: Stationer
Registration district: Wandsworth
Sub-registration district: Wandsworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 2
Household Members: Name Age
Lottie Varnham 65
Arther Varnham 63
Joseph Sharp 20
Elizabeth Summer 38
Elizabeth Luppold 42

Rose

Hello Rose,
C.W. Carrol Otway and H. Williams.
Kind regards
Greg

Here's Walter's birth under Fraser:

Births Jun 1848
Fraser Walter Frank Farnham Newington 4 355

Rose

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Arthur Varnham Fraser
Name: Arthur Varnham Fraser
Year of Registration: 1839
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 4
Page: 208

Rose

Ellen?

Births Mar 1838
Fraser Ellen Lambeth 4 232

Rose

So it does look like they weren't married.

Rose

Hello Rose,
Many thanks, that gives me some more ideas.
Kind regards
Greg

Jessie?

England & Wales, FreeBMD Birth Index, 1837-1915
about Jessy Jane Farnham
Name: Jessy Jane Farnham
Year of Registration: 1842
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 4
Page: 209

Rose

Do you have the family in 1851 and 1841?

Rose

Hello Rose,
No, I couldn't find them in either 1841 or 1851.
I wondered if they were under their mother's maiden name but that would have meant that they all would have changed their names before 1861. Or perhaps they were travelling out of the UK?
Kind regards
Greg

Found them!

Figured they had to be in Newington with Walter born there in 1848 and Marianne marrying there in 1853:

1851 England Census
about Mary Jane Frassa
Name: Mary Jane Frassa
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Relation: Wife
Gender: Female
Where born: Devon, England
Civil Parish: Newington
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Newington
Sub-registration district: St Mary
ED, institution, or vessel: 4
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 119
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Jane Frassa 40
Mary Ann Frassa 16
Ellen Frassa 13
Frassa 11
Jessy Frassa 7
W Allen Frassa 2
Sarah Robert 58 Mother.


Rose

So Mary Jane Roberts was married to a Fraser first.

Mary Jane and Arthur probably married soon after Mr Fraser died.

Rose

Seeing as Arthur, Ellen and Jessie are born in Lambeth, I found them in 1841.

England Census
about Mary Freder
Name: Mary Freder
Age: 30
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1811
Gender: Female
Civil Parish: St Mary
Hundred: Brixton (Eastern Division)
County/Island: Surrey
Country: England
Registration district: Lambeth
Sub-registration district: Lambeth Church Second
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Mary Freder 30
Sarah Freder 6
Ellen Freder 3
Arthur Frew 1
Sarah Barnes 14


Image says Fraser and Mary is a stationer.

Rose

Hello Rose,
That's brilliant news! So many thanks!
I was beginning to think that my assumptions had to be wrong but you've managed to provide the missing evidence.
Kind regards and, once again, many thanks
Greg