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I'm sorry, but this is just annoying.
"i need james to have been in Australia in 1890's when he married"
Then you seem to be doomed.
People lied about their places of birth, their dates of birth, their parents' names and their own names all the time. If you don't want to believe that and consider other possibilities, again, your choice.
"i did a fast search on the one from leeds and he was still there on the 1901 census and couldn't find any shipping records for him"
Your "fast search" is nonsense, as I explained. You have no way in the world of knowing whether any James Smith in 1901 is the James Morris Smith born in 1854. Period.
Perhaps you didn't notice what I mentioned about other people who are members of GR having all the Smith siblings born in Australia in their trees. Perhaps you are already in contact with them and just haven't mentioned. You might like to note the correct dates of the birth registrations (a birth might have been late the year before it was registered, but a birth was not the year after it was registered) that I offered so your tree here is accurate -- I did the searches it seems you haven't:
http://www.bdm.nsw.gov.au/familyHistory/searchHistoricalRecords.htm
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as my grandfather was the youngest child
the certificate had the names of all his brothers
and sisters and their ages.
and where the parents were born on it.
in regards to finding out information from family members
MARY I not J, I asked at the record office they said that the transcpirter could not tell the different between an I and J
in the old style writing.
I know that Mary died before marrying or having children.
my mother was never told about her aunts and uncles she always knew of florence she was 7 before she new of morris and about 12 before she knew of david aunty flo was the one that told of the other girls whe she was about 17 .
Minnie and lily I know that they married and had children but I have been unable to locate them since I know that one of them had a daughter named Vera.
Florence never married and died in 1985.
Morris married a matron of the newcastle hospital but she died before they had children he died 1996?
david married and had 3 son 1 that died as a child, 1 that died at 28 the remaining son has verifyied the informatiomn that i have provided.
thank you for the information about the different ways to search the records for information
the records for leeds i disregarded becourse i need james to have been in Australia in 1890's when he married i did a fast search on the one from leeds and he was still there on the 1901 census and couldn't find any shipping records for him
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For info, do you know the stories of James and's Mary's other children / are you in contact with descendants? I asssume these are their kids to 1909:
8515/1891
SMITH MARY I
JAMES M
MARY J
BROKEN HILL
- died 1918 unmarried?
(It does help if you respond to things like when I noted that Mary's initial on both her marriage record and this birth record, at least as transcribed, is "J", and confirm whether info posted is correct.)
13950/1896 ?
SMITH MINNIE A
JAMES M
MARY I
MANILLA
7381/1899
SMITH FLORENCE M
JAMES M
MARY I
TAMWORTH
36280/1901
SMITH MORRIS J
JAMES M
MARY I
TAMWORTH
16997/1904
SMITH DAVID A
JAMES M
MARY I
TAMWORTH
- died 1965
8759/1908
SMITH ERIC M
JAMES M
MARY I
TAMWORTH
- died 1971
You did say you had received info from others in the Carr/Sawyer family(ies), just wondered about this line.
Right, you have them all in your tree. You're in touch with everyone who has one or another of them, I assume (e.g. 3 other people have Minnie NSW 1895, various places of birth given; you and two others have Morris as 1902, one has the apparently correct 1901; ditto for David, everyone has him as 1905). One person who has all of them was born in England, you know him/her?
No one has James Smith 1854 Leeds ............ ;)
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"sorry but ann was born 1833 in southport Lancashire England and is the mother in-law to James m Smith
his wife as said above is Mary I Sawyer and was born in Hawtorne Vic Australia on 3/6/1863"
I'm not seeing whatever problem you're saying "sorry" about ... Ann was born 1833 in Southport, married before leaving England in 1857 ... so is the marriage I suggested that couple or not?
Marriages Sep 1856
? CARR Ann Ormskirk 8b 914
? Sawyer Thomas Ormskirk 8b 914
You said you had traced that family. What I said was that *us* having a bit more info about them -- specifically that they married before leaving England, and their daughter Mary was born after that, i.e. after 1857, was useful info in searching for more about James Morris Smith. Ah, I see; I'd lost track of the bit about Mary being born 1863, from her marriage certificate.
Did you actually confirm whether that 1890 marriage in NSW is your couple? Mary was born 1863 so was 27ish. Is she likely to have married someone 15 or 20 years older?
"done a quick search on James Smith Born 1854 in Leeds unfortunally he is not a match as he still appears on the 1901 census for england and not Australia"
Since that JMS was likely born after March 1854 (only the birth certificate would tell; he could have been born March and registered April), he is more likely to appear in censuses as born c1855. And people also fudged/estimated their ages, commonly.
The 1901 census shows two James Smiths born in Leeds in 1854, one in 1853, etc. However, the 1861 census shows one born 1854, two born 1855, one born 1853 (I'm discounting the ones with middle initials other than M). 1852-1856, eight James Smiths were registered in Leeds reg dist. And then there's the fact that people didn't always state their places of birth correctly.
But if you want to discount the only birth with the exact name of your James, at just about the right time, without getting the birth certificate, that's your choice!
The birth certificate would not necessarily establish anything -- John Smith is a common name, and your James may not even have given the correct name for his father, or may not have known his father's name, or may really have been the child of unmarried parents and registered in his mother's surname.
The Morris may have been a christening name, although a somewhat odd one. It could also have been his real surname, and Smith a stepfather's name, or the surname of his biological father. A surname as a given name could be the mother's surname. It also sometimes indicates that the mother was, e.g., a Smith, and the father a Morris, and they weren't married. I've spent some time trying to investigate that possibility too. I, and I'm sure others, have done various searches to try to rule that James Morris Smith in or out, or find another one. I also considered that he might have spelled the surname Morris as if it were the given name Maurice, but nothing seemed to match that either. The fact is that for that exact name in England there are four births, two marriages (1872, 1886), and no deaths with a relevant birthdate (two born pre-registration, two too young).
If Morris was his unmarried mother and Smith his father, and he later chose to go by his father's surname (all these things *did* happen, not at all uncommonly), here are another couple of possible interesting ones:
Births Dec 1851
MORRIS James Smith Knighton 26 252
Births Dec 1860
MORRIS James Smith Narberth 11a 609
Here's another possibility -- the names do easily suggest Scotland, and this person's name reflects the naming practice of including mother's surname:
Name: James Morris Smith
Birth Date: 09 Jan 1859
Birthplace: FALKLAND,FIFE,SCOTLAND
Father's Name: William Smith
Mother's Name: Elizabeth Morris
Collection: Scotland Births and Baptisms, 1564-1950
And another:
Name: James Morris Smith
Event Type: Christening
Christening Date: 15 Aug 1858
Christening Place: Lache-with-Saltney, Cheshire, England
Father's Name: Thomas Smith
Mother's Name: Jane Smith
Collection: England, Cheshire Parish Registers, 1538-2000
A variation for illustration -- spelling very often suffered when people moved abroad:
Groom's Name: James Morrice Smith
Bride's Name: Margaret Kemlo
Marriage Date: 10 Feb 1843
Marriage Place: Fordoun,Kincardine,Scotland
Collection: Scotland Marriages, 1561-1910
A John:
Name: John Frederick Edward Morrice Smith
Burial Date: 20 Oct 1869
Burial Place: Richmond Parish, Surrey County
Age: 54
Birth Date: 1815
Collection: England Deaths and Burials, 1538-1991
Or maybe he was just born when and where he said, and there's no verifiable record, and that's that.
You have found no one who matches the specs you have, and if you don't want to explore other avenues, it's up to you!
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sorry but ann was born 1833 in southport Lancashire England and is the mother in-law to James m Smith
his wife as said above is Mary I Sawyer and was born
in Hawtorne Vic Australia on 3/6/1863
thanks
done a quick search on James Smith Born 1854 in Leeds unfortunally he is not a match as he still appears on the 1901 census for england and not Australia
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The first thing you'd need is his birth certificate, to get the parents' names. The chance of the father being John Smith is unfortunately rather good. ;)
It should give you a father's occupation as well. And with that and the mother's name you could find their marriage (that certificate might give you their ages, and their fathers' names as well) and look for them in the censuses after the marriage to see whether they had a child to match your James, and then see whether he disappears from the censuses, or marries and has children ... to rule him out or in, as the case might be.
You really would need the birth cert for starters. It could be a complete red herring but there's no way to know without the info on it.
I guess I had the right Sawyer-Carr marriage, and you had it already. Having full info, even if it seems unrelated, really is necessary for people trying to help. Placing Mary Sawyer's parents' marriage indicates that her birth was after 1856, which might be a guide to James Smith's birthdate, you see.
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Hi Everyone,
Thanks very much for all your help.
Regarding Ann Sawyer nee Carr
yes her and Thomas came to Australia
in 1857 on the ship "BEE" from Southport (Ormskirk)
they arrived in Geelong. On this side of the family I have had help from other desendents of this line and was able to get back to the 12 & 16 hundreds. So I am now looking into the hard to find SMITH side of the family.
How would I go about trying to verify if the James Morris Smith that was born 1854 in Leeds is the right person I had all but given up on finding him as it said that his mothers name is unknown.
thanks one more for all your help regards katrina
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Agreed Janey, worth a look for sure.
:-)
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"Thos & Ann were in Vic by 1857 but did not marry in Vic. Likely arrival in Apr 1857"
So the 1856 marriage in Omskirk is a good possibility.
"No birth of a Jas Morris SMITH nor to a John Morris SMITH in Vic. "
So the 1854 birth in Leeds is a possibility.
http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl
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Mary born in Hawthorn Vic 1863 to Thomas SAWYER & Ann CARR (reg 14648). Thos & Ann were in Vic by 1857 but did not marry in Vic. Likely arrival in Apr 1857, Ann aged 24 and Thos aged 23 aboard 'Bee'.
No birth of a Jas Morris SMITH nor to a John Morris SMITH in Vic. No death of a Jno Morris SMITH in Vic either.
Is this the death of the Mary I born in 1891?
16796/1918 SMITH MARY I JAMES M MARY I WALCHA
Mary Isabella died in 1952 in Tamworth aged 88 (reg 14948). Do you have that certificate?
Did James M die in Tamworth in 1934 aged 83?
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Marriages Sep 1856 ?
? CARR Ann Ormskirk 8b 914
FISHER Thomas Ormskirk 8b 914
? Sawyer Thomas Ormskirk 8b 914
Willey[r_]ose Elizabeth Ormskirk 8b 914
WILLG_OSE Elizabeth Ormskirk 8b 914
Births Mar 1860 ...
SAWYER Mary Jane Ormskirk 8b 545
[edit - right, that's not Mary Sawyer Smith as there seems to be a record of her birth in Australia]
There is an English birth that could be of interest:
Births Jun 1854
SMITH James Morris Leeds 9b 394
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sorry didn't think
the cerificate said that the marriage of
James Morris Smith born Melbourne 184?
father's name John Morris Smith work: Clerke
mother's name unknown
Mary Isabella Sawyer born Hawthorne 1863
father's name Thomas Sawyer work: gardener
mother's name Ann Sawyer nee Carr
on my grand father's birth certificate who was james
youngest son the age of james made him younger
then when he was married.
on james death certificate his age was diffierent again.
make an age gap of 10-15 years in the end i think it was 1842-1857 when he could have been born.
i was told that the morris may have been a christening name and not on the birth certificate.
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Was he James M Smith??? No Vic birth that matches that name.
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Does the marriage give parents names or even father's name by any chance? There are lots of contenders. Do you know when/where he died?
James SMITH born Moonee Ponds (Melb) in 1842 to Edward & Catherine (nee BUNCE or BRUCE)
James SMITH born Melb in 1843 to Launcet & Ellen
James SMITH born Melb in 1843 to John Thos & Ellen
James SMITH born Melb in 1845 to James & Catherine (nee REARDON)
James SMITH born Melb in 1845 to David & Anne (nee MARY)
James SMITH born Melb in 1846 to Holmes & Mary (nee STYLES)
James SMITH born Melb in 1847 to James & Isabella
James SMITH born Melb in 1848 to James & Avis (nee EDGAR)
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Can you give *all* the info from his marriage certificate?
It should give at least his father's name, if not both parents' names. And his age at marriage.
This could help considerably in searching for info about him.
2784/1890
SMITH JAMES M
SAWYER MARY J - a misreading of initial "I"?
BROKEN HILL
The initial is repeated on this birth record, though:
8515/1891
SMITH MARY I
father JAMES M
mother MARY J
BROKEN HILL
Editing your subject line to add "Australia" could also help attract the attention of members who can help.
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Hi Victoria
sorry i didn't say but by his married certificate his was born in melourne vic aus in the 1840's
but i was unable to locate him.
thanks for your help
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Hi trying to find details on my great grand father James Smith married broken hill 1890 to Mary Isabella sawyer
any help would be a great help
thanks katrina
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