Find Ancestors

Last posted 5/01/2010 and still no further forward, Am looking for my G/G Grandfather William Alfred Oliver but it seems complicated and confusing !!
I have two birth certs, one being my G/Grandfather William Alfred Findley Oliver b 11/03/1862, Mother is Emma Maria Oliver (born Bermondsey 1830 and 33 when he was born) but in the father box is William Oliver and a line running through from top left to bottom right as if crossed out with a small number 11.
His brother Frederick Charles Oliver was born 23/12/1866, mother is same (both born St Andrews Hill, City of London.) but not only is Emmas name in the mothers box ,she is in the fathers box too !! although this is crossed out in the same way as Williams with the number 17.
She brought the sons up on her own as shown on 1871 and 1881 census but no trace at all of the father, all i have is on Williams (my GGfather) wedding cert of 16/11/1884 in Chelsea is father William Alfred Oliver (deceased and a Traveller).
Questions are, when and where was he born (around the same as Emma 1830) ? how hard is it to trace a Traveller ? did he and Emma Maria marry ? what was her maiden name ?
Kind Regards, Ron Oliver.

May be relevant , But he may have not died , just moved on & left her to raise the children alone , hence crossing out the fathers name , as in my great grand fathers case , his father left when his mother was expecting his sister , to marry someone else , sad but it does happen .

Other thread which you should have just added to Ron

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.page/board/trying_to_find/oliver/thread/1196452


jax

For reference

Household:1881

Emma OLIVER Head W Female 53 Winchester, Hampshire, England
Edward OLIVER Son U Male 34 Westminster, Middlesex, England
Alice M. OLIVER Dau U Female 31 Brompton, Middlesex, England
Florence OLIVER Dau U Female 25 Fulham, Middlesex, England
George H. OLIVER Son U Male 20 Fulham, Middlesex, England Accountants Clerk
Fredk. OLIVER Son U Male 14 Fulham, Middlesex, England Scholar
Percy OLIVER Son Male 9 Fulham, Middlesex, England Scholar


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling 24 Peterboro Rd
Census Place London, Middlesex, England

If Emma had a maiden name other than Oliver it would have said so on the sons birth certs wouldn't it ?

Perhaps "Widow" was a convenient title.

yes i have thought of that but there is a gap of four years, did he father William in 1862 go off Travelling then come back and father Frederick in 1866 told you it was confusing !!!

There is one marriage between 1860-1865 .
groom's name: William Hayen Oliver
groom's birth date:
groom's birthplace:
groom's age:
bride's name: Emma Belcher
bride's birth date:
bride's birthplace:
bride's age:
marriage date: 31 Aug 1863
marriage place: Christ Church,Hoxton,London,England
groom's father's name:
groom's mother's name:
bride's father's name:
bride's mother's name:
groom's race:
groom's marital status:
groom's previous wife's name:
bride's race:
bride's marital status:
bride's previous husband's name:
indexing project (batch) number: M03761-1
system origin: England-ODM
source film number: 590835
reference number: do you think this could be them ?

Yes mike you could be right as the 1871 and 1881 census has her down as a widow and the head at 95, St Johns St , London.

Margaret, if Emma had been married when the boys were born it would have given her maiden name on their birth certificates.
Even if she had married another Oliver.
I have a cert whereby my ancestor is recorded as Carty, formerly Carty ( she married a distant cousin)
So the fact that there is no other surname for Emma to me means she was unmarried.

He may have been living with her during those 4 years , what makes you think he was not ? he may have left before the second son was born !

Thanks for info but he is def on Williams wed cert as William Alfred Oliver but cannot rule it out

I know that , but Ron , has not said there was no Maiden name on the cert's . but the case still may be they lived together , had to children , but used the fathers name as her own , to avoid the stigma of being unmarried , he then left her before the birth of the second child , hence his name not being on the cert . then classed herself as a widow!.

The fact that the poster asked
"what was her maiden name ?"
suggested to me that there was only one surname on the certificates.

Of course Wm Alfred Oliver may well be the boys (one or both) father, but it doesn't look as though they were legally married ......... not before 1867 anyway.

oh yeah, sorry Mike.

Margaret, there is no other name regarding Emma, it just names her as Oliver, but why was William named as the father only to be crossed out as in Fredericks cert she is shown to be Father AND Mother ?
Widow only came up on the 1881 census.

If he had ran off with someone else, Emma would have been very Angry , hence having it crossed off !& having herself named as mother & father on Fredericks cert. & as i said she would have classed herself a widow , because as far as she was concerned , other people though that they had been married.

not sure if that 1881 census above fits with family on other thread?
this is what we had on there

1881 95 St JOhn St Clerkenwell
Emma maria Oliver 51 wid Dressmaker b bermondsey
William A 19 Warehouseman b City
Frederick c 15 Printers errand by b City

for info 1871 a wid.
1871 95 St John st Clerkenwell
Emma Maria Oliver 41 Wid dressmaker b Bermondsey
William A 9 b Blackfriars
Frederick C 5 b Blackfriars

think Ron is getting this cert.(info from other post) page number as transcribed i cannot be sure of number
Name: William Alfred Oliver
Year of Registration: 1860
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Clerkenwell
County: Middlesex
Volume: 1b
Page: 3[38]1

Jansmith, As you advised i was going to purchase the death cert for William Alfred Oliver in 1860 but sent for Fredericks (my G/Gfathers brother) birth cert hoping to having the Traveller shown as the father but hence a father is not even on his !!
If i do send for it, whoever he is he would have died 2 years before my G/Gfather was born in 1862, What do you think would be on the cert that would help me ?
I dearly would love some info on the elusive Traveller, where and when he was born, i keep thinking he maybe was Irish as one of my G/Gfathers mid names was Findley, Also Emma Maria, bringing up two boys on her own and doing a job as a dressmaker must have been hard.
Im sure i will have a break through sometime, someone in Genes out there must have a tiny clue for me to go forwward !!
Regards, Ron.