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Charles c1873 & Kenneth b1874, brothers of Donald, all of whom were born in the East Indies. Their father was Colin MacKenzie (a surgeon) and their mother Catherine Hay Kinmond.

They returned to England between 1875 and 1881 as they are on the 1881 census in Edinburgh.

I believe I have found Charles and Kenneth on the 1891 census but haven't been able to find any record of either of them after that.

I would really love to know more about my great grandfather's 2 brothers.

Many thanks,

Mary

n

Could you reproduce the 1891 census info? You haven't said where they were, even, so it would be a bit of a chore for someone else to find what you have. ;)

Janey,

Sorry, I didn't see there were any replies to this thread. :-((

The son Donald is on the 1891 census with his father Colin who had since remarried......I have all of Donald's info from 1881 onwards as he is my direct ancestor.

I don't have any other info about the father Colin apart from his parents were Donald MacKenzie, occ. Mason and mother Ann MacDonald. I've never been able to positively identify Colin, nor his family, in any earlier census.

The 1891 census info for them and the 1881 census for the whole family shown below:


1891 Scotland Census
about Charles Robert MacKenzie
Name: Charles Robert MacKenzie
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1874
Relationship: Boarder
Gender: Male
Where born: British Subject, Fndiay
Registration Number: 685/4
Registration district: St Giles
Civil parish: Edinburgh St Giles
County: Midlothian
Address: 21 Lothian Street
Occupation: Stationers Apprentice
ED: 44
Household schedule number: 79
Line: 16
Roll: CSSCT1891_351
Household Members: Name Age
Alexander Campbell 36
Jessie F Campbell 45
Jessie F Cairns 20
Robert F Hope 15
Charles Robert MacKenzie 17 <<<<<<<<<<<<<
Jessie Lambert 16


1891 Scotland Census
about Kenneth J MacKenzie
Name: Kenneth J MacKenzie
Age: 18
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relationship: Servt (Servant)
Gender: Male
Where born: Bangor (British Subyect), India (think it's meant to be Landour not Bangor!)
Registration Number: 98
Registration district: Inverness
Civil parish: Inverness
Town: Inverness
County: Inverness
Address: 72 Academy St
Occupation: Clerk
ED: 7
Household schedule number: 1
Line: 15
Roll: CSSCT1891_27
Household Members: Name Age
John Purse Brodie 54
Janet M Brodie 45
George Brodie 22
Annie S Brodie 20
Alfred W Brodie 14
Arthur I Brodie 12
Netta M Brodie 11
Hugh F Brodie 7
Patrick G Brodie 5
Victor W D Brodie 3
Gordon S Brodie 9 mos
Elizabeth Morrison 23
Janet Fraser 19
John Urquhart 65
Kenneth J MacKenzie 18 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<

1881 Scotland Census
about Colin MacKenzie
Name: Colin MacKenzie
Age: 42
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1839
Relationship: Head
Spouse's name : Catherine
Gender: Male
Where born: Strathpeffer, Rossshire
Registration Number: 685/5
Registration district: Newington
Civil parish: Edinburgh St Cuthberts
County: Midlothian
Address: Officer'S House College Of Surgeons Nicolson St
Occupation: Officer R C Surgeons Eding
ED: 17
Household schedule number: 83
Line: 9
Roll: cssct1881_291
Household Members: Name Age
Colin MacKenzie 42 - Strathpeffer
Catherine MacKenzie 37 - Dundee
Donald MacKenzie 11 - Jhansie, East Indies
Charles MacKenzie 7 - Landour, East Indies
Kenneth MacKenzie 6 - Landour, East Indies

Mary

There weren't any replies until late last night. ;)

I haven't quite figured out what Elizabeth is up to with these seemingly random nudges from time to time, but I thought what the heck, it's here now, may as well ask.

rootgatherer is really right, though, it might make more sense for it to be in the Kinmond thread -- but in any event we can refer to it:

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=1155006

Since this is Scottish ... hmm. ;)

One thing: if you want to check the 1891 census for Kenneth to verify what the original says for place of birth, you can view that (for credits) at ScotlandsPeople, and that might be worth doing.

Janey and Rootgatherer

I put these as separate threads just to add them to the TTF in case someone related reads them at some time in the future......I wasn't really expecting to get help. Also, the Kinmond one is rather longwinded (well it will be when I post the rest of what I think I know lol) and I didn't want to get it all confused with MacKenzie info.

My grateful thanks to you both for replying and helping me - it's very much appreciated :-)))

Mary

Hi Rootgatherer

Yes they did. According to Colin's 2nd marriage entry the divorce was on 4th July 1883. I need to try and get hold of their divorce records....wish me luck lol.

If I have the correct Catherine?? She married John Munro in August 1883 but stating that she was a spinster.........their son Alexander was born in 1882 according to the census.

I'm going to put some other info on my other thread about Catherine and try and keep this one more to finding out about what happened to Charles and Kenneth after 1891.

Mary

Well!! This is the best birth entry I have ever seen! It not only gives where and when the parents married but also their ages and where THEY were born.....PLUS records other children i.e. *1 girl living*. I think the registrar took his job rather seriously lol.

Robert Wilkie Kinmont (Kinmond) + correct parents....thank you Rootgatherer :-))

Which means........where on earth are they on the 1851 and 1861 census??

Off to have another look on SP for the birth for Charles.......they must LOVE me so much, £90 I've spent on there in 4 days LOL.

As you would rather I kept this all to one thread I will do another post in a while (take me an age to type it all out!) with as much info as I have about Catherine.

Mary

ps.....no you're not missing anything Rootgatherer, there is another Catherine in the frame!

Good afternoon all

OI! JaneyCanuck-

What do you mean I do "seemingly random nudges
from time to time"?

When I have done this, 8 times out of 10, the request
has caught someone's attention and they have been able to help.

Otherwise, the request just falls from attention.

You cheeky beggar!

I'll be nuding away when I can!

So there!

Best wishes
xx

No, no Rootgatherer.....I meant another post on this thread, not another new thread :-)))) Hope I can fit it all in lol.

Mary

I really do need some expert help in sorting out these 2 Catherine Kinmonds please!!

Catherine Hay Kinmond. I have found 2 likely candidates and will put as much info as I know about them……I shall call them Catherine 1 and 2 for clarity :-)

Catherine 1.
Born c 1845/6 in Dundee to parents Robert Kinmond (Boiler maker) and Ann Robb. I have her with her parents and siblings in 1851 and 1861. Initially, I thought this was MY Catherine because of where and when she was born – plus, I cannot find her on the 1871 & 81 census – and assumed that that was because she was in the East Indies married and having children. BUT, then I found her in 1870 as a witness to her brother Robert’s marriage. So I figured that this can’t be the correct Catherine as MY one was giving birth to Donald in Jhansie in 1870. To date I still haven’t managed to find her in 1871 and 1881 to rule her out 100%.

I then found her death in 1915 – still in Dundee – single, and her death registered by her nephew Thomas Caird. Catherine’s sister Helen married Thomas Caird, Thomas being their son.

Catherine 2.
Born c1854 to parents Alexander Kinmond b c1827 (Stone Mason) and Margaret Wilkie. They married in January 1851, but I haven’t been able to find them on the 1851 nor 1861 census…..although, now I have got Robert Wilkie Kinmont/d’s birth in 1855 (courtesy of Rootgatherer, many thanks :-)), I shall search some more.

Alexander Kinmond’s mother was Catherine Hay married to Charles Kinmond about 1820 and living in Longforgan Perthshire in 1841. Alexander died in 1890 in Edinburgh, death registered by his son Charles, with parents details as above.

Catherine Hay Kinmond born c1854, parents Alexander Kinmond (Stone Mason) and Margaret Wilkie married John Munro in Edinburgh August 1883.

I really need to be able to find either of these two Catherine’s in 1871 to be able to positively rule one of them out!

Now, the MacKenzie/Kinmond info.

Working backwards from my great grandfather Donald (a Dentist) I found his marriage in 1900 to Helen Walker on which he states his parents as: Colin MacKenzie and Catherine Hay Kinmond, although her name is very difficult to decipher, I’m pretty certain that’s what it is.

Next I found Donald in 1891 staying with his father Colin who had since re-married to May Tolmie Smith. I then found Colin’s 2nd marriage in Edinburgh1885 which states *divorced from Catherine Hay Kinmond 4th July 1883*, he was still living in the RC of Surgeons Halls.
I’d already found the family in 1881 *as detailed on an earlier post* which shows Donald, Kenneth and Charles all born in the East Indies. It also gives Catherine’s age as 37 and pob as Dundee. Having looked at the image on SP it’s actually very difficult to make out her age as there is a thick line through it, but it does look like 37. :-((

IF, Catherine Hay Kinmond married to John Munro is the same one previously married to Colin, then her age doesn’t tally with the Catherine in 1881. So at the moment I still can’t be sure which of the two is the correct one :-(

Help!!! If I’ve missed anything out, just shout :-))

Mary

Well rootgatherer is on the case. ;)

I'm happy to watch!

Awww but.......Janey you would enjoy this one :-)) These 2 Catherines are more elusive than the Scarlet Pimpernell himself LOL.

Sorry, I had to go and cook dinner in between searching the 1871 and 1881 census again.......still can't find either of them though.

Mary

Woooooohoooooooo!!!!! I have finally found Catherine no.1 in 1871........there are some differences between the image on SP and the transcription on Ancestry. I had the feeling that this Catherine never left Dundee! The Ancestry transcription is shown below and I have put the info from SP image alongside the line entries.

1871 Scotland Census
about Cathrine Kimmons >>>> Kimmont
Name: Cathrine Kimmons >>>>Kimmont
Age: 24
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1847
Relationship: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Dundee
Registration Number: 282/1
Registration district: St Peter >>>> St. Johns
Civil parish: Dundee
Town: Dundee
County: Angus
Address: No 24 Temple Lane (same address)
Occupation: Jute Winder (same occ. as her death cert)
ED: 1
Household schedule number: 154
Line: 21
Roll: CSSCT1871_49
Household Members: Name Age
Cathrine Kimmons 24 >>>>>> Cathrine Kimmont 24

So, it seems as though Catherine no.2 IS my Catherine afterall :-))) The little madam obviously lied about her age.....although I would have thought it would have seemed obvious? There's a lot of facial difference in a 16 and 26 year old.

Thank you Rootgatherer for all your help. :-))

To answer your last posting.......I'm pretty sure Colin and Catherine married in the East Indies and that their divorce would have been in Edinburgh. I really do need to get hold of their divorce records though.

I'm waiting for the birth cert for Catherine's brother Charles, if it's the correct one then it will prove that her parents Alexander and Margaret WERE in the East Indies at the time.

And now I really must go and do some work to pay for all the credits and certs I've just bought! LOL

Mary

Hi Rootgatherer :-))

If this is the right Catherine (*says with an anguished cry......please don't let there be another one!!*).....then yes she would have been about 16(ish).
Alexander and Margaret married in January 1851, so she could have been born a little earlier than 1854, but only by a couple of years I would guess.

I'm still not 100% convinced that this is even the right Catherine because her age and pob doesn't fit with the 1881 census info. :-((
I've no idea how much info would be in the divorce records but I'm hoping if I can get hold of them that it would give her age or parents names, to be able to rule this one in or out.

Well, I've searched the 1851 census 'till I'm blue in the face but I still can't find Alexander and Margaret anywhere. :-(( Nor on the 1861, which is the one I now need to find them on.

Looking back at all my searches on SP, I started looking for Catherine in 2003. Crikey, I'd hate to think how much she has cost me LOL. But I can see that the Catherine I found this morning wasn't coming up on the searches I did between then and now, and that was using all sorts of name searches......I've even found Alexander in 1841 spelt as Kmment :-))

Mary

omg!! Unbelievable!!

Catherine married John Munro in August 1883. Their son Alexander (according to the 1891 census) was born 1882.

Just searched SP for his birth using Munro (obviously lol)......nothing.
Tried using Kinmond......nothing.
Searched again using MacKenzie........bingo!!

Colin Alexander MacKenzie born 23rd Feb 1882.....parents Colin MacKenzie and Catherine Hay MacKenzie ms Kinmond. Married on 15th April 1868 Jhansie East Indies.

Mary

And the audience goes wild!

pmsl.........and so they should Janey lol.

And where is my mother when I have got such news for her??? Not at home that's where.......how inconsiderate is that! LOL

Mary

Hi Rootgatherer

Well my mother was suitably impressed.......when I finally managed to get hold of her tonight! She's been away gallivanting at someone's 80th birthday bash......when she really should have been sat waiting by the phone for me to ring! LOL

Yes Colin did register the birth. Just supposition I know, but I wonder if he did so believing the child to be his and some months later (maybe by the time the baby was 6-9 months old?) thought *this child doesn't look like my other children??!*

The divorce was just 16 months after the birth and, I think I'm right?, that in adultery cases divorces were granted very quickly. His son by his 2nd wife just 2 years later was named Colin too.

I think Catherine has knocked a couple of years off her age when she married John Munro, he was 28 and she was (allegedly) 29......I think she was most likely born about 1852 and therefore 16 when married to Colin. I'll try and get the marriage cert now that I do have a date at long last. :-)

Now, I'm quite happy to have the pat on the back and the round of applause lol, but when it comes to the whiskey.......yuk, no way, hate the stuff lol. But now that is another of my Scottish lines.......Donald married Helen Walker, who, according to my nan was related to the Johnnie Walker whiskey family. I think that was just some fairy story though, as I've never found any connection yet LOL.

Mary