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We now have checked WFT King birth cert and it confirms his father and mother were WFA King Music Director and Lilian Maria King(formally Thomas) respectively.
WFT King was born 10-10-1901 son of WFA King and Lilian Maria nee Thomas.
We don't know if WFT King's parents had any other children besides WFT King and his sister Lilian Ellen Elsie King. We don't know if WFT King/Closs/Hutchinson(as he became) and his wife Roseland Mary Huchinson(previously Jones) had any children at all.
Can anyone cast any light on this?

William Frederick Alfred King , Lillian Ellen Elsie King/Closs's father birth Cert shows his date of birth 24th Jan 1873. So his age at 1901 census should be 28 which is ok.
His reported death in 1908 Shows his age 35 which figures within a year.
The William F Closs Music Director in Deptford St.Paul 1901 census shows age 41. If this is the same person, the age reported seems to be in error.
The Marriage cert dated 1899 for William Frederick Alfred King (Musical Director)Age 25 in 1899 also checks when he married Lillian Maria Thomas(age 21).
Marriage cert WFA King shows his father as William Josiah King (deceased) so all Batmans Daughter information checks out but we stll have the anomally with WF Closs age 41 in 1901 census so is this an error or is there another WF Closs Musical director?
regards Victor

Marriage Certificate of William F King and Roseland M Jones 1932 (2nd qtr 11a 1667) shows WFK as age 30 and name "King, otherwise Closs, otherwise Hutchinson".His father stated to be William Alfred King otherwise Closs Musical Director
It seems that it is brother of Lilian Ellen Elsie King otherwise Closs otherwise Hutchinson who was married to Roseland M Jones 1932.
We now know from death cert of Roseland that William Frederick Thomas Hutchinson widower of Roseland signed the document . We now know that William had three initials i.e., W FT and we have a reference to birth Cert Year 1901 Bolton Vol 8c Page516 Oct- Dec :-)

Birth certificate of Lilian Ellen Elsie King confirms her mother was Lilian Maria King & father William Frederick Alfred King.
Cert year 1900 qtr Jun District Bedford Vol 3b Page 349

To Dee X Thanks for your advice. I will go for the Marriage Certificate and see what turns up.
Victor

Hi Victor,

I agree the 1901 census that shows William aged 41 is a real fly in the ointment!!!

I think we really need to find the 1891 census and see what that holds.

Seeing that the mothers name on LEE Kings birth cert is the same as the marriage I found, I think I would be tempted to order the marriage cert for the parents for LEE. This may give us more clues and should give William Kings age and his father details.



Dee x

To Batmans Daughter- Birth certificate of LEE King /Hutchinson states Father William Frederick Alfred King. Mother Lilian Maria King (formally Thomas).
I am still bothered by Wlliam F Closs Musical Director Stated father (deceased)of L E E Hutchinson (Otherwise Closs) on her 1919 marriage certificate.
William F Closs Musical Director in 1901 census was age 41 that is born c 1860. This is big difference to William FA King Musical Director you say was born 1873.
Apart from this big age discrepancy everything else seems to fit. Thanks for your input. Regards Victor

Sorry Victor,

I didn't explain very well... here goes.

W F Closs was born as W F King to Ellen Watkins and William King, here's their marriage;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

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Marriages Jun 1871 (>99%)
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Hall John Thomas Greenwich 1d 964
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>King William Josiah Greenwich 1d 964
Relf Helena Maria Greenwich 1d 964
>>>>>>>>>>>>WATKINS Ellen Jane Greenwich 1d 964



Sadly William King dies;
Deaths Mar 1874
Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page
KING William Josiah 22 Greenwich 1d 506



Ellen then marries Henry Closs;


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

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Marriages Sep 1875 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CLOSS Henry Greenwich 1d 1273
King Ellen Jane Greenwich 1d 1273



William F King was born in March 1873, obviously he is very young when his father dies and his mother remarries, therefore his name on the 1881 census would have a K as an intial to show the King name;

1881 England Census
about Ellen Closs
Name: Ellen Closs
Age: 32
Estimated birth year: abt 1849
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Henry
Gender: Female
Where born: Brighton, Sussex, England

Civil parish: Deptford St Paul
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address: 5 Clifton Tr Woodpecker Rd
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: St Paul Deptford
ED, institution, or vessel: 38
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Closs 28
Ellen Closs 32
William K. Closs 8 >>>>>>>>> William Frederick King
Ellen Closs 4
Florence Closs 1


Now the only way to back this up would be to order all the marriage certs, the death cert for William Josiah King and the birth cert for William Frederick King.

Obviously W F King the musical Director would take a choice of the 2 names; King his true surname or Closs the name he was bought up with?


I then beleive that William Frederick King went on to marry Lillian Maria Thomas and she was the mother to Lilian Ellen Elsie Hutchinson/Closs/King born in 1900.


The only way L E E Closs can be Ellen Closs's grandaughter in 1901 (which the census has been mistranscribed/ the surname put as Glass instead of Closs) is that William Frederick King/Closs was her father!!!



William Frederick King/Closs dies in 1908.... Lillian Maria King is then able to marry George Hutchinson the following year...


So it looks like L E E Closs/ Hutchinson took on her stepfathers name!!!



You say you have the birth cert for L E E King born in Bedfordshire... who's stated as the mother???




Dee x

To Londonbelle
Ref William F Closs you are absolutely correct. Thanks .
We have the 1901 Census info. We can't find details of his birth, marriage or death. Can anyone help?
As a musical director we understand he travelled extensively
including to Germany/Austria ?
Regards Victor

BatMansDaughter- You have confirmed Marriage Cert ref 11a1391 for George Carlyle Gash and Lilian Ellen Elsie Hutchinson (otherwise Closs).We have this.
Certificate also states William F Closs(Deceased) is father if Lilian Ellen Elsie.
You stated 1901 census Lilian Glass( did they mean Closs?) born c1900.
Where born - Bedford Bedfordshire. Relation - Grandchild. Civil Parish- Deptford St Paul. Sorry I can't see the connection with the Glass Family and if records should read Closs you don't seem to have found the connection with William F Closs the stated father of Lilian Ellen Elsie Hutchinson (otherwise Closs).
Your information on William F A King Birth March 1873, Marriage 1899 and his death Sept 1908 adds up with his wife Marrying again 1909 to Hutchinson. Story almost complete.Thanks Victor

And then;

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

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Marriages Dec 1909 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>>>>>HUTCHINSON George Cardiff 11a 530
KEENAN William John Cardiff 11a 530
>>>>>>>>>>KING Lilian Maria Cardiff 11a 530
PARR Sarah Cardiff 11a 530




So the Hutchinson is her stepfathers name.


Dee x

Maybe his marriage?

Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Mar 1899 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>>>>King William Frederick A Yeovil 5c 568
Perry Dorcas Yeovil 5c 568
Swain Frank Yeovil 5c 568
>>>>>>>>>>>>>Thomas Lillian Maria Yeovil 5c 568



Dee x

Just to put the cat amongst the pigeons.... this is William in the 1901 census
it states that he is married and occupation is Musical Director. He is listed as Head with no other people in household

Name: William F Closs
Age: 41
Estimated birth year: abt 1860
Relation: Head
Gender: Male
Where born: London, England

Civil parish: Deptford St Paul
Ecclesiastical parish: St James Hatcham
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status:

View image

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Deptford, South
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 59
Household Members:
Name Age
William F Closs 41

His death?

Surname First name(s) Age District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Deaths Sep 1908 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KING William F A 35 Portsmouth 2b 247



Dee x

His birth;

Births Mar 1873 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

KING William Frederick A Poplar 1c 765




Dee x

There is a tree on Ancestry, Lilian had an uncle William Closs and this is what the tree states;

Name: William K Closs
Birth: 1873 - Poplar, Middlesex
Parents: William Josiah King, Ellen Jane Watkins


Ellen married Henry Closs in 1875 in Greenwich...... so maybe Wiilam K Closs, who would be born William King and then took on the Closs name could be Lilians father?


Dee x

Free search on the 1911;

HOUSEHOLD CLOSS ELLEN F 1856 55 Greenwich London
HOUSEHOLD CLOSS ELSIE F 1886 25 Greenwich London
HOUSEHOLD CLOSS HENRY M 1856 55 Greenwich London
HOUSEHOLD CLOSS MONTAGUE M 1891 20 Greenwich London
HOUSEHOLD CLOSS PERCY M 1889 22 Greenwich London
HOUSEHOLD CLOSS THOMAS M 1882 29 Greenwich London



So Lilian is no longer with her Grandparenst.


Dee x

It looks like someone has corrected this... so there is someone else researching the family?

1901 England Census
about Lilian Glass
Name: Lilian Glass
[Lilian Closs]
Age: 1
Estimated birth year: abt 1900
Relation: Grandchild
Gender: Female
Where born: Bedford, Bedfordshire, England

Civil parish: Deptford St Paul
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul Deptford
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Greenwich
Sub-registration district: Deptford Central
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 51
Household Members: Name Age
Henry Glass 40
Ellen Glass 40
Florence Glass 21
Herbert Glass 20
Thomas Glass 18
Elize Glass 16
Percy Glass 12
Mantage Glass 10
Lilian Glass 1


Dee x

So this is the marriage registration;

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page

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Marriages Mar 1919 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Closs Lillian Gash Neath 11a 1391
Davies Mary J Davies Neath 11a 1391
Davies Thomas Davies Neath 11a 1391
Gash George C Hutchinson Neath 11a 1391
Gash George C Close Neath 11a 1391
HUTCHINSON Lillian Gash Neath 11a 1391

is it Closs or Close?



Dee x

Lilian Ellen Elsie Hutchinson(otherwise Closs)born c1900and whose marriage to GC Gash certificate 1919 stated father Wlliam F Closs (Musical Director) deceased
We have found birth certificate of Lilian Ellen Elsie King born Bedford 31st March 1900 whose father stated to be William F A King (Musical Director). Does anyone know how L E E King became a Hutchinson? Are King & Closs same Person?