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My Grandparents Henry George Martin b.1830 don't know his death, married in c.1831 to Matilda Orr b.1846. d.1913.had a daughter Emma b1875 in Karanasi India, died 1932 in Colchester in England. She married Albert Thomas Waller in India, who was in the Army.
I would like help please finding out my grandparents B.M.D. was it England or India? and why where they out there, was it with the Army.

Born 1830, didn't marry c1831. ;)

1871?

Entry from Transcription of Bengal Marriage Indexes 1865 - 1873
Presidency of Marriage BENGAL
Marriage Year 1871
Husband First Names George H.
Husband Surname Martin
Wife First Names Matilda
Wife Surname Orr
Prefix N1
Source Year 1871
Volume Number 137
Folio 75
LDS Film Reference

http://search.fibis.org/frontis/bin/aps_person_search.php

In all likelihood he was in the military, and her father likely was as well. There are other possibilities, such as the East India Company.

Groom's Name: George Henry Martin
Groom's Birth Date: 1830
Groom's Birthplace:
Groom's Age: 41
Bride's Name: Matilda Orr
Bride's Birth Date: 1844
Bride's Birthplace:
Bride's Age: 27
Marriage Date: 11 Sep 1871
Marriage Place: Benares, Bengal, India
Groom's Father's Name: Thomas Martin
Groom's Mother's Name:
Bride's Father's Name: William Orr
Bride's Mother's Name:
Groom's Race:
Groom's Marital Status:
Groom's Previous Wife's Name:
Bride's Race:
Bride's Marital Status:
Bride's Previous Husband's Name:
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M75022-5
System Origin: India-EASy
Source Film Number: 499043
Reference Number:
Collection: India Marriages, 1792-1948

Ah, that's better!

My off-the-top bet would be that they're Scottish.

Thank you to Janey and Michael for you help, you say you think they may have come from Scotland, any reason why? I have looked through Freebmd and cannot find any Birth's for either of them in the UK.

Just the names -- a family I'm peripherally connected to (my gr-grf's sister's husband's sister married into it), the Lovett Camerons, were Scottish and spent a couple of generations in India, with the military, the East India Company and the civil service. There were Scottish Orrs on the periphery of the family as well. Both surnames are common in Scotland.

You won't find a birth for Henry George Martin in the GRO index (FreeBMD) as he was born before 1837, even if he was born in England.

I did spot two Henry-s with fathers Thomas in Scotland in the 1851 census, and there are others in England.

FreeBMD has only England/Wales births. Pre-1855 parish registeres for Scotland are at www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk -- there are over 100 births 1840-1850 for Orr with father William, e.g., but no Matilda.

Hang on -- are they in an English census sometime? Matilda died in Essex, but how long had she been there, any idea? And Henry's death?

No, confused I am -- that was daughter Emma died in Essex ...

I don't pay for access to incoming passengers at Ancestry

http://search.ancestry.co.uk/search/db.aspx?dbid=1518

A search for Emma Waller shows one by that name arriving in Glasgow (I don't know when or from where), and of course numerous Mrs E Waller-s. Do you know when Emma left India for England?

There are a couple of Matilda Martin-s, and all the Mrs Martin-s.


I wondered whether any of the children born in the 1870s and 1880s might have been sent to England to school, as was often the case, but there are no Martin-s born in India of those ages with those names in the 1891 census.

Went and had a look through some handwritten info done by a cousin many years ago(since died) Info on Henry, he was a Sergeant in the 14th Light Dragoons-Bengal Army. Commissariat Dept. Sergeant of Unattached List, what ever that means! No info on b.or.d. All dates and info you have given me re marriage is the same. Daughter Emma married Thomas Jesse Waller 7/10/1881 in Sialcot Lahore India, he was in the Dragoon guards from 1884, their first child John was born in India1892, second son in Egypt 1896. Emma must have been back in England in 1898 as further children where born here. It's Henry and matilda's birth that seem to be tricky to find. I am very grateful for your help

It isn't quite adding up, still.

Originally, you said:

Henry George Martin b.1830 don't know his death
married in c.1831 [1871] to
Matilda Orr b.1846. d.1913.
had a daughter Emma b1875 in Karanasi India, died 1932 in Colchester in England.

So, once again the dates problem: Emma could not have married in 1881, if she was born in 1875. If her husband was in the Dragoon Guards from 1884, he and she must have been considerably older.

To marry in 1881 she would have had to have been born by 1863, say. With Matilda born 1846, that's cutting it close.

First child you gave was born 1892. Might you have meant she married in 1891? Proofreading really is wise! (And there's the edit link to click, to fix typos.)

Can you give us the names of the children born in England, please? Approx dates, places, if you have them?

In 1911, can't find John Waller born in India or any Waller born in Egypt.

Accurate info about daughter Emma could help get better info about George and Matilda.

Indeed. From FIBIS:

Entry from Transcription of Bengal Marriage Indexes 1874 - 1896
Presidency of Marriage BENGAL
>>> Marriage Year 1891
Husband First Names Thomas
Husband Surname Waller
Wife First Names Emma
Wife Surname Martin
Prefix N1
Source Year 1891
Volume Number 218
Folio 296
LDS Film Reference 512340


from pilot.familysearch:

Groom's Name: Thomas Waller
Bride's Name: Emma Martin
Bride's Birth Date: 1874
Bride's Age: 17
Marriage Date: 07 Oct 1891
Marriage Place: Sialkot, Bengal, India
Groom's Father's Name: Joseph Waller
Bride's Father's Name: George Henry Martin
Groom's Marital Status: Single
Bride's Marital Status: Single
Indexing Project (Batch) Number: M39355-4
System Origin: India-EASy
Source Film Number: 512340


Emma's death, for ref:

Name: Emma Waller
Death Registration Month/Year: 1932
Age at death (estimated): 57
Registration district: Colchester
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 838

and Thomas:

Name: Thomas J Waller
Death Registration Month/Year: 1936
Age at death (estimated): 71 = dob c1865
Registration district: Colchester
Inferred County: Essex
Volume: 4a
Page: 1101

So this is them in 1911 -- found by searching for Emma Waller born in India, then others living with her:

WALLER THOMAS 1863 48 Depwade Norfolk
WALLER EMMA 1874 37
WALLER RHODA 1897 14
WALLER TOMMY 1904 7
WALLER ALBERT EDWIN 1907 4
WALLER JESSIE 1909 2

John and whoever was born in Egypt are gone. Unless Rhoda is the one born in Egypt. Tommy answers to born in Norfolk, on a search. She doesn't. This msut be Tommy:

Births Mar 1904
WALLER Thomas Francis Norwich 4b 143

There is no sign of them in 1901 so they must have settled in England after that census.


But who is living with the Wallers in 1911?

MARTIN MATILDA 1845 66 Depwade Norfolk


Someone with full access to the 1911 census will be able to tell us where she was born!

-- I've used my "call a friend" to request the 1911 details. ;)


(See what I meant about how having accurate info about Emma could help find info about her parents? I was *hoping* to find one or both of them with her in 1911! I'd looked at that Emma in Depwade yesterday and just wandered off before looking to see whether there was a Martin in the household.)

India! Matilda Orr Martin was born in India -- I got it by trial and error on the search.

Call a friend ,has called..

1911
WALLER, Thomas Head Married M 48 1863 Licensed Victualler Hertford Herts
WALLER, Emma Wife Married F 37 1874 Benarcs India
WALLER, Rhoda Daughter Single F 14 1897 Sheffield Yorksre
WALLER, Tommy Son Single M 7 1904 Norwich Norfolk
WALLER, Albert Edwin Son Single M 4 1907 Pulham Mary Norfolk
WALLER, Jessie Daughter Single F 2 1909 Pulham Mary Norfolk
MARTIN, Matilda Mother Wifes Widow F 66 1845 Kampte India

Registration District:
Depwade Sub District:
Harleston Enumeration District:
8 Parish:
Pulham St Mary Magdalene

Address:
Pulham Market Harleston County:
Norfolk

8 children born....6 living ...2 died

Married 20 years

******************************************************
1901
Civil Parish:
Aldershot (Hants)
Institution: 2nd Dragoon Guards (Queen's Bays), West Cavalry Barracks
WALLER, Rhoda Priscilla Daughter F 3 1898
Sheffield
Yorkshire

Also there is
Thomas Waller,Corporal,age 36,Emma Waller ,wife,age 26,John Harry, son,age 8,born India and George Henry,son ,aged 5,born Egypt (British Subject)

Ta da! Ta. ;)

And here's why I couldn't find them at Ancestry in 1901 ... I guess I gave up too soon.


Name: George Henry Walter
Age: 5
Estimated birth year: abt 1896
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas Walter
Mother's Name: Emma Walter
Where born: Egypt

Civil parish: Aldershot Military in Stanhope and Wellington Lines
County/Island: Hampshire

Thomas Walter 36
Emma Walter 26
John Harry Walter 8
George Henry Walter 5
Rhoda Priscilla Walter 3


Grace, if you subscribe to Ancestry you should correct that surname, and you could also add Emma's birth surname and an (anonymous online permanent) email address (e.g. at Gmail) so you can be contacted by anyone else who searches for them.

You can do the same at FreeBMD -- find the births, Emma's death, etc., and add a "postem" to the record with your contact info.

Apologies for the confusion re: dates, you have been very patient with me and i am grateful for that, thank you for the info you have been able to pull up for me as a matter of interest my father is Albert in the line up!
Gosh I wonder how the surname came to be changed to WALTERS, mind you the other big mystery is that Thomas Waller Emma's husband, was Warters till he enlisted and chose the name Waller!!
Maybe I will have to get on to Ancestry and get down to more searching. Again thank you

Nono, Grace -- "Walter" is just a mistrancription by Ancestry. The person who transcribed the page misread the surname. That's why I suggest fixing it there. It seems to be correct at FindMyPast where FBG found it.

The image at Ancestry very plainly says Waller for each individual, nothing at all to make it look like Walter. Pure sloppy transcribing.

Where did that info come from, for Thomas?

The 1901 census says Thomas was born in Hertford.

The only birth that looks at all like would be:

Births Mar 1863
WARTERS Jesse Albert Hertford 3a 277

or there is

Births Jun 1863
WALLS Thomas John Hertford 3a 263

Closest thing in the 1871 census:

Thomas Waller
father Joseph, mother Dorcas
abt 1865 Hertford, Hertfordshire, England
Son
Brickendon, Hertfordshire

and I can't do any better, because Ancestry is giving me a completely different household, in Lancashire, when I click on that one. Unbelievable. Ah, okay, the image is the right one. Many children, father is shoe-maker and beer seller. Can't see a marriage for them ...


My grandfather seems to have joined the Dragoon Guards, a generation later, around 1910, under his father's name. No idea why! Maybe it was just a Dragoon Guards tradition. ;) The equivalent of the French Foreign Legion?

Hello me again, you where wondering where the info came re: Thomas, In the Tree passed on to me, the name Waller had in brackets formerly Warters, this had also been passed down verbally through rellies, I guess he had something to hide!! having tryed to trace back on the Waller side and got no where, decided to try the Warter's, and several coincedences came up, His birth cert. said Mother and Father names Mary and Joseph, they where also with him when he enlisted
His birth year 1863, year younger than when he enlisted (not unusual)
His own children also had names which his siblings had.
I also have an old photo of his grandparent,s that his sister Rosa sent to hisr sister Rhoda..The info you have re: Birth. cert for Warters is the one I have.
The family do originate from Hert's and his father Joseph comes from Silver End not many miles from where I live in Essex.
You have managed to work out that Matilda was born in India, need to work out where her Husband Henry Geaorge Martin was born , hope you are not to confused by all this and I have the dates correct this time. Thank You

My IrishGreatGreatGrandfather was in the Dragoon Guards and I cant find him ANYWHERE,alive or dead except on my greatnans birth cert and his marriage cert.
So Dragoon Guards must have a lot of people with dodgy details I say..!

Here we go in 1871, for info:

Name: Jesse Waters
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1863
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Joseph Warters
Mother's Name: Mary Warters
Where born: Hertford, Hertfordshire, England

Civil parish: St Andrew
Town: Hertford
County/Island: Hertfordshire
Registration district: Hertford

Joseph Warters 43 - born Essex, occupation cooper
Mary Warters 37 - born Hertfordshire, Wedford
Ruth Waters 15
Sarah Ann Waters 10
Jesse Waters 8
John Harry Waters 6
Herbert Waters 4
Ada Warters 3
Joseph Warters 1


The surname of each person in the household is written individually. The children are on the next page from the parents and the first one, Ruth, is entered as Waters, but all the others are actually recorded as Warters.


Still Warters in 1881, in Ware:

Joseph Warters 53
Mary Warters 47
Herbert Warters 14
Ada Warters 13
Joseph Warters 11
Arthur Warters 9
Rhoda Warters 8
Rosa Warters 3


Similar names, as you say.


Sounds like he was hustled off into the "foreign legion", underage, for some reason, indeed!