Find Ancestors

Ok,
I have great respect for the Genes Community as they have helped me several times in the past.
Joseph John Hawes (dob varies from 1867 to 1871 Oakley, Bucks). He came to London. He married Sina Elizabeth Matthews in Poplar 1902. They had a son Reginald Claude in 1904.
On his marriage cert he is a widower so married before. I have been unable to satisfactorily prove who was his first wife.
Joseph and Sina separated and their son is living with Sina's parents William and Elizabeth Matthews in the 1911 census age 6 and listed as Master Reggie.
I noted that also on the 1911 census, Doris Hawes age 17 is a visitor in the Matthews household. I looked up results for Doris and she appears age 7 in the 1901 census as a 'Nurse child' along with Gladys Hawes age 3. Firstly, what does Nurse child mean? Is it like being a foster child?
It has just occurred to me that Doris and Gladys may be children from Joseph's first marriage and were maybe fostered out after their mother's death and before Joseph married again. The Matthews' are living at 54 fern St. Bromley in 1911, which is where Joseph and Sina were living at the time of their marriage in 1902, so maybe Doris and Gladys were living there with them since then.
There is a possible match for Gladys in the 1911 census as a visitor of the Shearman family in Richmond. Not sure of what connection she may have with that family.
I was hoping to find baptism records for Doris and Gladys in order to be able to find the parents names and a clue to the Christian name of Joseph's first wife. I haven't found anything so far.
It says on the 1901 census that both Doris and Gladys were born in Streatham.
So, maybe some fresh minds on the problem will bring about a solution to my dilemma.
Over to you. Your help will be much appreciated.
Glynis.

Gladys?

Births Sep 1897 (>99%)
Hawes Gladys Mildred Wandsworth 1d 797 Scan available - click to view

Can't see a reg for Doris.

Can't see any baptism records for either of them.

May be worth trying that birth cert for Gladys which would give mum's name.

Jill

That was one of my possibilities. It doesn't confirm the parents like the baptisms though.
Doris is more difficult to match. There is a Charlotte Doris also born Wandsworth which is a possibility.
There is a death for a Charlotte Hawes in 1899 but I cannot be certain of their link, though that could be a reason why Charlotte would call herself by her second name. Nothing I could be certain of though.

From "Who do you think you are" magazine.

A nurse child was usually an illegitimate or unwanted child being brought up by foster parents for a small fee.

You are right. If all else fails I may have to send for Gladys' birth certificate.
It's expensive now though. Gone up to £9.25. It's a lot if it turns out to be a wild goose chase.

Thanks for that Michael.
It all begins to make sense.

A birth certificate is more accurate than a baptism. My gt grandmother baptised a child after she was married in her maiden name and a made up father with the same surname

There are 2 posible previous marriages listed for Joseph John.

EDIT :
Only one ( the other was Joseph James )
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Jun 1891

Hawes Joseph John - Louth 7a 1223

The Louth one intrigued me but there were 2 males listed on the page and only one female so could not still get a partner's name.

P.S. That was on Ancestry. Not sure if there would be a partner listed on another site.

Anyone have a partner for the Louth marriage?

The way to look at FreeBMD (where Ancestry's pre-1916 transcriptions come from, and the search results format at FreeBMD makes for easier finding) is to search for all marriages (don't enter any names) in Louth reg dist in Jun quarter 1891.

Then scroll through the list looking for a woman with an unintelligible page number that might be 1223. (If you click one time on any unintelligible page number, then all of them will show up in future as a red/read link, making them easier to spot in a long list.)

For instance:

Johnson Charlotte Louth 7a 122_

Then look for her at Ancestry, where the GRO images are clearer, and view the image.

So I did. ;)

And sure enough, it's hard to make out -- the last number is invisible but for the right-side edge -- but I make it 1223.

You can submit a correction to FreeBMD if you decide that's it, and they'll check it and fix it if they agree.

Does the name Charlotte make that likely?

A possible death:

Deaths Mar 1899
Hawes Charlotte 31 Wandsworth 1d 506

and it all does match up with the Gladys birth you have and the Charlotte Doris birth:

Births Mar 1894
Hawes Charlotte Doris Wandsworth 1d 834

Marriages Jun 1921 ?
Folkard Walter W Hawes Farnham 2a 299
Hawes Charlotte D Folkard Farnham 2a 299

(There's no other Charlotte D Hawes birth.)

do you have parents names for him to confirm census details .(Is he with them in 1891 to narrow search for marriage?)
what was his fathers name and Joseph's occupation on marriage cert?

Thanks JaneyCanuck,
That's exactly the result I was hoping for.
I had an inkling that the Charlotte death was the one for me but had been unable to find a marriage for Joseph John and a Charlotte to give the evidence.

jansmith,
I know Joseph's parents were Frederick and Rebecca and I have been able to find Joseph in all census results except the 1891.

Have copied this reply over to this thread as it came to my Sina thread and thought you helpers out there may have not seen it.

Hello
May have some info for you. My Nan is aged 94 and her mum was Gladys Hawes. Glady's parents were Joseph John Hawes and Charlotte Hawes. Glady's mum died when she was about 1 year old (so in around 1899) and Joseph re-married. Nan said that she remembers visiting her step grandparent/s and she thinks there name was Matthews. Gladys did not like her step mother and said she was cruel. Sounds like this could be a match for who you are looking for?
Vicky

Vicky,
How wonderful to hear from you.
I think we are indeed distantly related and I would love to hear from you via personal email with any other personal details that your Nan can remember.
[email protected]

I am inclined to agree with your Nan about Sina. She married Joseph, had a child and then upped and left him with her parents when he was little more than a babe and went off with someone else.

Your mail confirms all the efforts of myself and the lovely community here on Genesreunited to get to the bottom of Joseph's first marriage.

Thank you one and all.
Glynis.

Just to keep all you helpers up to date.
The marriage of Joseph John to Charlotte Johnson is correct.
Charlotte did die in 1899 and left 2 children, Doris (Charlotte) and Gladys.
They were fostered out for a while until Joseph married again (Sina Matthews) in 1902.
Joseph and Sina had a child in 1904.
By all accounts Sina was not a very lovable person and left them all for another man a few years later.
Sina went on to have a daughter and twin boys with her new partner whom she married eventually age 65 !!
Thank you all for your help on this one.
I have also managed to find a distant relative.
If you can add to the story further I look forward to hearing from you.