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Looking for Lionel Hartley,a scale setter. He was witness to his sons wedding, JOSEPH aged 19 to ADA FLETCHER, 18, wed,on 1st jan 1883. [ marrage cert ] Also Ada,s dad Henry Fletcher, a cutler, he was also a witness. BUT l cannot find any of the dad,s before or after 1883. Ada was wed from 44 Earl st SHEFFIELD 1883 BUT not there in 1881. Ada & joseph show on the 1891 & 1901. SO where have they been in the previous years?? I know where joseph was. HELP__HELP

This is a bit complicated,but info from tree on Ancestry Ada Elizabeth Fletcher 1867 to Elizabeth Fletcher nee Tinker born 1838 and Henry /Harry Fletcher.

They also had Emily fletcher 1859 she married John Walker Hall in 1879

1871 census 14,Court Hoyle Street District 12 image 17 North Sheffield.
Sydney truelove 1842 single he died 1901
Elizabeth Fletcher married born 1838
Emily Fletcher 1859
Ada Fletcher 1867
Sydney says Fletcher 1869/70.But he is Truelove

1881 address Brightside Bierlow D14 I 25.
Elizabeth Truelove widow but she didn't marry Sydney Truelove.

Ada now Truelove
William Truelove born 1876.
Emily Hall 1859
John Walker Hall.
Son Sydney Truelove 1869 with his dad Sydney Truelove 1842.

It definately is the same family as they have Ada Elizabeth married to Joseph Hartley.

1901 Elizabeth back as Fletcher
Sydney truelove son 31
Emily Tinker neice 35
Edith Tinker 3

1909 elizabeth Fletcher widow of henry dies informant Joseph hartley both of Morpeth Street

So it looks as though Henry/Harry Fletcher died sometime after 1879.

Maryb

Mary, thanks for your big help. In 1871 & 1881,there appears to be 2 different fletchers in earl st but margaret tied them together. this is why l tied ada to them. I am now back tracking. Any help with LIONEL?- I am a hartley ,my wifes g,dad [smith] wed a hartley & my g,dad wed a hall !
bye Dave

I don't think I saw Lionel at all before or after the marriage.

Maryb

I wonder if he went under another first name.


What was address of Joseph on marriage certificate,and what was Josephs occupation

Mary,Joseph lived at 44 earl st sheff & he worked as a grinder when wed
In 1871 6yr & 1881 16yr grinder, living with charles sykes on both dates as step son .WAS jane sykes a hartley ?b in nottinghamshire- In 1861 at 22 there is a jane hartley
B nottinghamshire
In 1881 there is jane sykes 40 yrs with joseph- WAS she married to lionel ?
I will now look for another name for lionel
dave

Marriages Jun 1871 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

******Hartley Jane Sheffield 9c 625
Jackson Fanny Sheffield 9c 625
Johnson Charles Sheffield 9c 625
******SYKES Charles Sheffield 9c 625


Marriage cert would indicate whether Jane was single or a widow.

Hi Choccy
Would l be right in saying that , if she was single,she was a hartley to start with ? * and if she was the widow of lionel hartley , He could not have been at his son josephs wedding in1883.- Having said all that could they have been divorced. But they dont seem to get divorced in those days
Another thought is that a hartley married a hartley.
When will it stop

Thanks for your most welcome help
bye Dave

here's that Jane Hartley in 1861 - she's living with 'Linah Heyworth'



1861 England Census
Name: Jane Hartley
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Newark, Nottinghamshire, England

Civil parish: Brightside Bierlow
Ecclesiastical parish: Pitsmoor
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Sheffield
Sub-registration district: Brightside
ED, institution, or vessel: 18
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 10
Household Members: Name Age
Jane Hartley 22
Linah Heyworth 25 (born Sheffield) (a boarder)




Source Citation: Class: RG9; Piece: 3497; Folio: 29; Page: 2; GSU roll: 543141.



Hold that thought -


in 1851 he is LIONEL KEYWORTH -


1851 England Census
Name: Lionel Keyworth
Age: 20
Estimated birth year: abt 1831
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Lionel
Mother's Name: Hannah
Gender: Male
Where born: Sheffield, Yorkshire, England

Civil parish: Sheffield
Ecclesiastical parish: Holliscroft
Town: Sheffield
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Sheffield
Sub-registration district: North Sheffield
ED, institution, or vessel: 19
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 331
Household Members: Name Age
Lionel Keyworth 60
Hannah Keyworth 58
Samuel Keyworth 24
Emma Keyworth 22
Lionel Keyworth 20
Joseph Keyworth 18
Hannah Keyworth 15




Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2339; Folio: 840; Page: 9; GSU roll: 87590-87593.


Could this be Joseph's father??

1851 Newark on trent Nottingham District 1b Image 25
Joseph Hartley 1816 a boatman born Holme Notts
Elizabeth born 1817 Basingstoke Leicestershire
JANE 1841 Newark on trent
William 1844
Richard 1847
mary Ann 1849

1861 Brightside Bierlow Sheffield D 18 Image 2
Jane Hartley born 1839? Newark Nottingham charwoman and single.

So is this Jane Hartley unmarried who had Joseph H Hartley age 6 on 1871 census as Sykes.

If so where does Lionel come in,unless Jane had Joseph H to a Lionel but not Hartley.

Can you just clarify that on marriage certificate it says Lionel Hartley is Joseph's dad and he was also one of the witnesses.

Maryb

EDIT 1861 census with Jane hartley ,the Linah Heyworth is a male working as Knife Cutler and definately looks like Lionel on original.
When I first looked at it i thought it was a female with that name.
Seems as though those stupid transcribers have done it again.

So if Lionel Keyworth is the father did he sign as Lionel Hartley as witness?

a marriage in 1867 of Lionel Keyworth


Marriages Mar 1867 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Halagan Daniel Sheffield 9c 316
Hawley Elizabeth Sheffield 9c 316
******Keyworth Lionel Sheffield 9c 316
Moran Catherine Sheffield 9c 316

No wonder we couldn't find Lionel.

1841 he was Lynell
1871 North Sheffield district 26 image 18
Linew Keyworth (Lionel) Knife Cutler
Elizabeth wife born Sheffield 1837 nee Hawley?
Harriett 1864
Ann Eliz 1869

Lionel keyworth born @ 1831 died 1886.

Maryb

Just noticed it said Harriett 1864 and he didn't marry till 1867.

1881 22,Lock Street Sheffield district 11 image 9
Lionel born @ 1827 spring knife cutler
elizabeth
Mary 1865
Ann E 1870
Mary J 1872

I think there is a common confusion here between named father (which is info supplied by the child getting married) and witness which is a person signing their name to the register and signifies that they were present but does NOT specify relationship
People often assume that the entry of the fathers name means that he was present at the wedding but that is not so. And where there is illegitimacy often the fathers name is adapted or made up for reasons of respectability
So we need to know EXACTLY what the cert says as has been pointed out above by Maryb but it rather loooks as if Joseph knew his fathers first name but not surname so just added his

What a team l have got ,-joseph & ada fletcher wed 1 st jan 1883 [ no 235 ] ada from earl st. & joseph from 44 mathew st Fathers name & surname, LIONEL HARTLEY,scale setter, HENRY FLETCHER,cutler, witnesses, Bans by john roe,also 2 more witnesses, by mark X john bright & matilda bailey ,even ada was by mark ,but not joseph,-BUT all the writing seems to have been done by the same person, ie the registrar. there is no number for earl st ,may be she knew fletcher were living there ,or she was in 1883-mary-choccy gillian -bye
& thanks for the help Dave

mary, l also found a lionel hartley in burnley ,born 1850
J_A_S x x 231- back tracking from josephs age -, lionel would have been about 15 / 16 at josephs birth --just a thought - bye dave

mary,--l have been to 44 mathew st, in 1881-- and guess what--no hartleys - its the HEWITTS--its like coronation st.
this is going to take a bit of time to put it all together
bye dave

Hi Dave,I wonder why they had 4 witnesses when most only have 2.

Maryb

1881 North Sheffield district 12 image 10
48,Matthew Street
Charles Sykes grinder
Jane Sykes born Newark Notts
Joseph Hartley stepson age 16 Sheffield.

So are you sure it says 44,Matthew Street on marriage certificate?

Whatever is says it is the same family.

If Joseph was 16 in 1881 then in 1883 when they married he may have been under age and he needed both his parents to give him consent to marry.

Mary I dont think they did have 4 witnesses -just the statutory 2
The 2 fathers names were entered in the section "fathers Name and occupation" which does NOT mean they were witnesses or present in any way
How the consent was managed -we will never know!

Maryb As you will see l said earl street for them both which is not right--
choccy & you mary, give lionel to be 30 in 1861 , but the sensus l am looking at says 25 , also l cannot find them on any of the years you have givern me from 1841 except
1871 , which gives me - keyworth-linew--A-30--elizabeth-- A 34 --harriet--A 7-& ann elizabeth--A 2.
thanks again , l hope l am not too much trouble,at 73 and have been learning since november , it takes time to get things right- Bye dave

Maryb I can see now how l have led you all off course,with the fathers names , no wonder the writing looked the same, Gillian is right, l thought they were all witnesses
Well thats the end of tonights bed time story ,l will leave you all in peace till l sort it all out .

Many thanks again for your much needed help

Bye till the next time. Dave