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William James or James William was the brother of my ancestor Thomas Francis (Frank) Greenway (born 1849), both children of William Greenway and Emma Cartland. They both disappeared from English records, James before 1871, and Frank before 1881 (leaving a wife and 8 children behind!). I have now found a website giving a family tree of James William Greenway, who apparently married Mary Theresa Daly in 1869 in Buenos Aires, Argentina, had children and eventually died there. The tree gives an email address of a descendant. I am desparate to contact her or any other descendant in the hopes it will lead to my finding my Frank, but my emails keep bouncing back. Can anyone suggest where I can go from here.

Margaret

Can I suggest that you remove the e-mail addy for this Cynthia. If her e-mails keep bouncing it's probably a 'dead' account but I don't think we are supposed to put e-mail addies onto the forum.

Jill

Sorry, didn't know that. How do I remove it?
Margaret

You remove it by editing your original posting.

Have you looked for the Greenways on here?

OK Jill,
removed it now

Bit of info for you. Obviously no proof of a connection here but there was a Cartland family who were very well-to-do. There is at least one road I know of named after them and their most famous member was author Barbara Cartland. I can't remember where their money came from.

Born Mary Barbara Hamilton Cartland at 31 Augustus Road, Edgbaston, Birmingham, England. She was the only daughter and eldest child of a British army officer, Major Bertram Cartland[1] (born James Bertram Falkner Cartland 1876; died 27 May 1918), and his wife, Mary Polly Hamilton Scobell (1877–1976).

Jill

Who was Frank's wife and/or any of his 8 children ?

Just for information:
Marriages Sep 1842
CARTLAND Emma Kings Norton 18 384
GREENWAY William Kings Norton 18 384

1851 England Census
William Greenway
Age: 32 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1819 Relation: Head Spouse's Name: Emma Greenway Gender: M (Male) Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil parish: Birmingham Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Town: Birmingham County/Island: Warwickshire Country: England Registration district: Birmingham Sub-registration district: St Mary ED, institution, or vessel: 10 Household schedule number: 44

William Greenway 32
Emma Greenway 32
M C Greenway 7
James Greenway 6
J E Greenway 2
Sarah Taylor 22
Susan Taylor 14

Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 2057; Folio: 269; Page: 13; GSU roll: 332117-332118.

Hi Jill,
My Emma Cartland was one of 8 children of James Cartland, a wealthy brassfounder in Birmingham. Her brother John lived in Kings Norton and carried on with the business, and his son John Howard Cartland born 1850 became High Sheriff of Worcester and a Captain in the Worcester Hussars.. Oddly enough I hadn't connected them with Barbara Cartland, I didn't know she was born in that area. I'll have to do a bit more research.

Thanks for that,
Margaret

Hi Mike,

Frank married Agnes George in 1871, their children were Ernest Francis William (my grandfather) born 1872, Leah Agnes Dora b.1873, Alfred James Harry b.1875, Lewis Howard Frank b.1876, Lionel Cyril b.1877, Lena Dorothy Topsy b.1878, Alphonso b.1879 and Michael Morris Scally b.1881.

Margaret

Is this Agnes in 1911, as claims 2 children, 1 living, married 34 years, now a widow:
GREENWAY, Michael Head Single M 29 1882 Grocer Bham
GREENWAY, Agnes Mother Widow F 60 1851 Home Duties Derby

RG number: RG14 Piece: 18154 Reference: RG14PN18154 RG78PN1099 RD385 SD1 ED7 SN2
Registration District: Aston Sub District: Deritend Enumeration District:
7 Parish: Aston Address: 143 Sandy Lane Birmingham County:
Warwickshire

1881 census
Agnes Greenway
Age: 30 Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Visitor Gender: Female Where born: Derbyshire, England Civil parish: Aston County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England Street Address: Alma Crescent
Condition as to marriage: Married Registration district: Aston Sub-registration district: Duddeston ED, institution, or vessel: 16

Sophia Isaacson 44
Agnes Greenway 30
Earnest Greenway 9
Lina Greenway 2

Source Citation: Class: RG11; Piece: 3028; Folio: 127; Page: 49; GSU roll: 1341723.

Births Mar 1873
Greenway Lear Agnes D King's N. 6c 476

Deaths Dec 1875
GREENWAY Leah Agnes D 2 Birmingham 6d 37

Hi Jill,
I am related to Barbara Cartland!

My great-great-grandmother born 26/8/1817 was Emma Cartland. Her brother John Cartland born 25/12/1811 married Ann Howard 29/5/1845. Their 4th child James Frank Howard Cartland was born 1852 and married Flora Falkner September quarter 1875. Their son James Bertam Falkner Cartland was born 24/5/1876, and was the father of Barbara Cartland.

Fame at last!

Margaret

Hi Patchem,

Yes, the same Agnes Greenway - what a fibber! I have all the children's birth certificates, so there's no mistake.

By 1911, two of them had died, two had gone to Canada under the Home Children Scheme, my grandfather and a brother Lionel Cyril lived in West Bromwich and a sister Lena lived in Dudley, and Michael lived with his mother. There was obviously some family rift, as my father who was born in 1910 never met his grandmother Agnes, even though she didn't die until 1922.

In the 1881 census she was living with her sister Sophia Isaacson, with only my grandfather and Lena. Four were in the Wolverhampton Workhouse, one had died and she was expecting her eighth.

Margaret

I cannot see Lionel/Cyril Greenway in 1911. What is he hiding under?
Thanks

This (am I mixing up generations?):
GREENWAY, Ernest Father Married (NOT single) M 38 1873 Stoker At Birmingham Warwick
GREENWAY, Mary Wife Married 18 years F 37 1874 Hales Owen Staffs
GREENWAY, Howard Son Single M 17 1894 Spring Maker Hales Owen Staffs
GREENWAY, Bertie Son M 13 1898 Errand Boy Sheffield Yorks
GREENWAY, Lily Daughter F 10 1901 West Bromwich Staffs
GREENWAY, Lionel Son M 1 1910 West Bromwich Staffs

RG number: RG14 Piece: 17323 Reference: RG14PN17323 RG78PN1062 RD371 SD4 ED18 SN274
Registration District: West Bromwich Sub District: West Bromwich North East Enumeration District: 18 Parish: West Bromwich
Address: 3 Pitt St West Bromwich County: Staffordshire

Hi Patchem,

The family at 3 Pitt Street was my grandfather Ernest and my father Lionel (named after his uncle).

If you reverse the christian and surnames you will find Lionel Cyril Greenway born 1877 as Greenaway Cyril! It took me a while to find him!

The sister Lena Dorothy Topsy Greenway had married James Harper Bill and was found in the 1911 as Dorothy Bill born 1881 (actually born 1878).

They don't make it easy for us, our ancestors! And I'm still no nearer to finding out what happened to my Frank Greenway (Agnes' errant husband).

Margaret

Fantastic Margaret. What a lovely surprise for you. I found a lot about the Cartlands on Google. If you are thinking of going off at a tangent at any time, the Scobell family look quite interesting too.

If you haven't already found this website here is a page link http://www.barbaracartland.com/static/bio1.aspx?from=1

It says

'Captain Bertram Cartland of the Worcestershire Yeomanry Militia married Mary Hamilton Scobell.

The Cartland family was first mentioned in AD1200 in Lanark, Scotland. The Cartland Crags are still a beauty spot.

The Scobells were the oldest Saxon family in existence, an ancestor was Sheriff of Devon in 1032.

So it looks as if you really are 'connected'. I'd forgotten this about Barbara until I just went into birminghamuk.com so take a look at this page too.

http://www.birminghamuk.com/barbaracartland.htm


In 1927 Barbara Cartland married Alexander George McCorquodale, a former Officer of the Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders who was heir to a British printing fortune. They had a daughter called Raine who became "Deb of the Year" in 1947 and much later the stepmother of Diana, Prince of Wales.

Oh by the way, we are related too. Heaven knows how to work out how many cousins, removed or simply filed away in the filing cabinet of history.

A James Cartland married Flora Falkner who was a direct descendant of King Robert the Bruce of Scotland.

My paternal paternal line come from Shetland which was given over to Scotland as part of a wedding dowry. It was ruled harshly by the Stewarts. Being feudal in nature when the laird wanted, the laird got. It was a fact of life but not quite as hidden as some communities. My lot come from an island called Whalsay on the eastern side of Shetland and many people I know there were presented with lots of information from a gentleman who did masses of research on the families. I have a lot of 'Bruce' relations and my line goes back to Earl Patrick Stewart, Robert Stewart and into the kings of Scotland. One of my Shetland cousins is a direct descendant of the great Bruce herself. From memory I think 24th direct.

So my probably several thousanth many times removed cousin, I'm very happy to know you ;)

Jill

(born in Birmingham)

Thanks Jill for all your info.

I've studied the websites and have a new respect for Barbara Cartland - not just a fluffy pink lady!

I hadn't gone back beyond James Cartland b. 1788, who married Ann ?. (I have his Will if you are interested.) Interesting that the Cartlands came from Scotland.

I started this search looking for my Frank Greenway - I've really gone off on a tangent.

Bye for now cousin!!

Margaret