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Margaret

You're very welcome

sylvia

Hi Sylvia, you have been such a help. I talked to my sister and she said that Mum had also given 1879 as her father's DOB, so I think you have the right one. This whole Trying to Find area is so large I'm in danger of losing contact with you. I will try to come back but if I cant, please accept my heartfelt thanks for your kindness. Regards, Margaret

Hi Margaret

I have had another look, and can't find George Cormack's death on freebmd.

There is a George Cormack on Scotland in 1881 and 1891 of the right age, etc .......... btu I cant see his job, and the Englsih censuses don't name the town where he was born.

I also couldn't find a George Cormack marriage to Julia ... at least not on freebmd which covers England and Wales.


Still lots of mysteries.



I would send for Thomas Gardner's birth certificate (b. ca 1879) and see who is named as his parents . ti obviously isnt' mary Ann. Maybe even Emma's!


Each one will cost £7 from www.gro.gov.uk


sylvia

Hi Sylvia(in Canada),
You are a treasure. Again you've found info to check against what I have found. I thought Donald & Charles were twins, I didn't think about Julia bringing her other children to Thomas. I know often a widow would come to look after the family of a widower and morals demanded that they marry. Thanks. Regards, Margaret

Do I have them all???


Charles Gardner b.ca 1872
Donald Cormack/Gardner b.ca 1872
Edward Gardner b.ca 1857, Newcastle
Elizabeth A Gardner b.ca 1870
Emma Gardner b.ca 1877
Frederick Gardner b.ca 1863
Julia A. Gardner b.ca 1860 <<<< Cormack
Mary Gardner b.ca 1868 ???? died ... haven't found death
Mary Gardner b.ca 1876
Robert Gardner b.ca 1866
Thomas Gardner b.ca 1879
Thomas Gardner b.ca 1858 ??died 1874
William S Gardner b.ca 1860



sylvia

1861 Census

Name: Thomas Gardner
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary Ann
Gender: Male
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Westgate St John
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Westgate
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: Westgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 22
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Gardner 4 b.ca 1857, Newcastle
Mary Ann Gardner 26 b.ca 1835, Lancashire
Thomas Gardner 25 Operative Tobacconist
Thomas Gardner 3 b.ca 1858, Newcastle
William S Gardner 1 b.ca 1860, Newcastle

Address:- 3 Bath Row, Westgate St John



Thomas b ca 1858 was still alive on the 1871 Census



I wonder if this is his death???

Deaths Dec 1873 (>99%)

Gardner Thomas 15 Newcastle T. 10b 73


sylvia

This is probablt Donald Gardner/Cormack in 1901 ..... reverting to his birth surname.

Proof ............. on the 1891 Census where he is Donald Gardner, he is shown as a Bookbinder


1901 Census

Donald Cormack
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Sarah H
Gender: Male
Where born: Newcastle, Northumberland, England

Civil Parish: Gateshead
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
County/Island: Durham
Country: England

Registration district: Gateshead
Sub-registration district: Gateshead
ED, institution, or vessel: 37
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 198
Household Members: Name Age
Annie Cormack 3
Donald Cormack 29 Bookbinder Finisher
George Cormack 11 months
Isabella Cormack 5
James Cormack 6
Sarah H Cormack 26

Address:- 17 Ord Street, Gateshead

- - -

Donald's marriage registration

Marriages Mar 1894 (>99%)

Cormack Donald Gateshead 10a 1100
Hill Sarah Harriet Gateshead 10a 1100




sylvia

These might be the answers to the questions

Gardner children on 1881 Census born between 1870 and 1880

Charles Gardner 9 b.ca 1872, Newcastle
Donald Gardner 9 b. ca 1872, Newcastle
Emma Gardner 4 b.ca 1877, Newcastle
Mary Gardner 5 b.ca 1876, Newcastle
Thomas Gardner 2 b.ca 1879, Newcastle

+ Elizabeth Gardner 10 b.ca 1870, Newcastle 99%)


1. Gardner/Gardener registrations on freebmd between January 1870 and December 1881


Births Sep 1876 (>99%)

Gardner Emma Newcastle T. 10b 87



Births Jun 1871 (>99%)

Gardener Charles Newcastle T. 10b 133


????
Births Jun 1871 (>99%)

Gardner Mary Newcastle T. 10b 91

OR
Births Mar 1878 (>99%)

Gardner Mary Isabella Newcastle T. 10b 90


2. Cormack babies

Births Jun 1871 (>99%)

CORMACK Donald Newcastle T. 10b 54


I have to go out now, but I'll be back in a couple of hours and see if I can see anyhting else for you.

I think you really do have 2 melded families on the 1881 Census ..... and the only way to sort it out may be to get the birth certificates and see who are the parents!


sylvia

Sylvia (in Canada) Many thanks for your info. I'm working on what my mother said 20 yrs ago but there are huge gaps. Unfortunately those who would know have been dead for many years. Lots of matches in what you have found. There seems to have been another son Thomas in 1859 so he probably died. My grandfather Thomas gave his DOB as 10/1/1880 so I'll check. Regards, Margaret

This looks like it could be Mary Ann's death registration


Deaths Dec 1874 (>99%)

Gardner Mary Ann 40 Newcastle upon Tyne 10b 75



I have had a quick look on freebmd for George Cormack's death registration, but can't see it



sylvia

Here's Julia Ann Cormack in 1871, with husband and children, including Julia Ann b.ca 1860

1871 Census

Name: Julia Ann Cormack
Age: 35
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: George
Gender: Female
Where born: Newcastle Upon Tyne

Civil Parish: Westgate
Ecclesiastical parish: St Matthew
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: Westgate
ED, institution, or vessel: 10a
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 46
Household Members: Name Age
Cathrine Cormack 4
George Cormack 42 b.ca 1829, Scotland, Boiler Smith
Isabella Cormack 14
Julia Ann Cormack 35
Julia Ann Cormack 11
Margaret Cormack 7

Address:- 52 Blandford St



Now one job you will have to sort out, having seen that at least one of Julia's children is shown under the Gardner surname in 1881 ............... is to work out which of the children born between 1871 and 1881 are really Gardner vs Cormack children. She may well have taken more children with her into her union with Thomas.


I fear it may mean that you will have to buy a number of birth certificates.


If it makes you feel any better ... one of my husband's ancestors had 20 children between 1836 and 1860 that I have been sorting out!



sylvia

You can search on freebmd.org.uk for marriages of the Gardner children.


sylvia

and here he is in 1891, with one grandson

1891 Census

Thomas Gardner
Age: 57
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Julia
Gender: Male
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: St John
Ecclesiastical parish: St Johns
Town: Newcastle
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas
ED, institution, or vessel: 5
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Donald Gardner 20
Elizabeth Gardner 22
Ermond Gardner 17 <<<<< Emma on image
Julia Gardner 56
Thomas Gardner 57 Tobacconist
Thomas Gardner 14
Albert Stoone 8 Grandson

Address:- 2 Stowell Square


sylvia

hmmmmmmmmmm

looks as if Thomas and Julia didn't marry until AFTER the census was taken

Marriages Dec 1881 (>99%)

CORMACK Julia Ann Newcastle T 10b 39
GARDNER Thomas Newcastle T. 10b 39


- - - -

The only way to find out who was baby Thomas mother is to buy his birth certificate.

There are two Thomas Gardner's born in Newcastle upon Tyne between January 1879 and December 1881. One of them should be yours

Births Mar 1879 (>99%)

Gardner Thomas Newcastle T. 10b 83


Births Sep 1879 (>99%)

Gardner Thomas William Newcastle T. 10b 107


sylvia

1881 Census ..... for reference

Thomas Gardner
Age: 45
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Julia A.
Gender: Male
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Newcastle On Tyne St John
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

Street address: 12 Stowell Square
Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Tobacco Skinner (Tobac Manuf)

Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Charles Gardner 9
Donald Gardner 9
Elizabeth Gardner 10
Emma Gardner 4
Julia A. Gardner 45 b.ca 1836, Newcastle on Tyne
Julia A. Gardner 21 b.ca 1860, Newcastle on Tyne, Milliner
Mary Gardner 5
Thomas Gardner 45
Thomas Gardner 2 b.ca 1879, Newcastle




I would suggest that Julia Gardner b. ca 1860 could be Julia's daughter who may or not have been adopted by Thomas after their marriage.


sylvia

For reference purposes

1871 Census

Name: Thomas Gardner
Age: 34
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1837
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary A
Gender: Male
Where born: Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: St John
Ecclesiastical parish: St John
Town: Newcastle Upon Tyne
County/Island: Northumberland
Country: England

Registration district: Newcastle Upon Tyne
Sub-registration district: St Nicholas
ED, institution, or vessel: 10
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 185
Household Members: Name Age
Edward Gardner 14
Elizabeth A Gardner 6 months
Frederick Gardner 7
Mary Gardner 3
Mary A Gardner 36 b.ca 1835, Manchester, Lancashire
Robert Gardner 5
Thomas Gardner 34 Tobacconist
Thomas Gardner 12
William Gardner 11


sylvia

Looking for any of the very large family of my great grandfather Thomas Gardner (tobacconist) who lived in 1871 at 18 Stowell Square, Newcastle upon Tyne with his wife Mary A. In 1881 He's at the same address, with some of his children but with his second wife Julia A. My grandfather, also Thomas, appears to be the last of his sons, born about 1879 or 1880. Don't know which of the wives was his mother and he may have been born to the second wife but before she and Thomas were married. Many thanks, Margaret