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I am trying to find information about my paternal grandmother Ellen Flynn.

She was married at Chester registry office on 28 Dec 1900 Marriage certificate details are :

John Bennion aged 21 years of Lower Yard, Crook Street Chester ( father Joseph Bennion )

Ellen Flynn spinster aged 20 years resident at 2 Morris Court Chester , ( father James Flynn : labourer)

This would suggest that Ellen was born c 1880. It would appear that 2 Morris Court was a lodging house and I have been unable to locate any other Flynn at that address.

I know that Ellen had a daughter Elizabeth Ann Flynn , born 12 Oct 1898 and at that time was living at 6 Water Street, Ashton under Lyne. I believe that this address was also a lodging house and again she appears to be the only Flynn there.

I have located her on the 1901 census with husband John Bennion and her age is given as 19 years ( suggesting she was born in 1882) and her place of birth is given as Ashton under Lyne.

The 1911 census however shows John Bennion with wife Helen age 30 ( suggesting a birth year of 1881) and her place of birth is given as Bradford , Yorkshire.

I have been unable to locate an Ellen / Helen Flynn born either Ashton under Lyne / Bradford with a father James Flynn on either the 1881 or 1891 census.

I am now ready to tear out my hair so PLEASE has anyone any ideas what my next step should be ?

???
Births Dec 1883 (>99%)
FLYNN Helen Dewsbury 9b 550
The district Dewsbury spans the boundaries of the counties of West Riding of Yorkshire and West Yorkshire.

The death would seem to indicate 1882, give or take one year

England & Wales, Death Index: 1916-2005
Name: Ellen Bennion
Death Registration Month/Year: 1955
Age at death (estimated): 73
Registration district: Chester
Inferred County: Cheshire
Volume: 10a
Page: 173

There is an Ellen Flynn born c1881 with father James on the 1891 census, but she was born in Gateshead, Durham......

The occupation of this James Flynn is "chemical labourer" and he was born Newcastle on Tyne.

We should also mention that Ellen and Helen (and also Eleanor) were completely interchangeable from one record to another for the same person. (Same thing with Esther/Hester, Anna/Hannah ...).

And also, an age variation of one year from one census to the next or one BMD record to another -- consider yourself lucky. ;)

Places of birth stated in censuses were also completely random in many cases. Most common was for a person's place of birth to be misstated simply as the place they were living, and also for a wife or child's place of birth to become a ditto to the husband/father's, or for his to be reiterated, when it was actually different.

That isn't the case for Ellen in 1901 -- but her daughter's place of birth is a ditto to Ellen's, so there's still a chance it was just a convenient fudge, especially given the specificity of the 1911 census.

In other words, Ellen aged 19 in 1901 and Helen aged 30 in 1911 are almost certainly the same person.

What I wondered was whether Ellen might really have been Irish, given the lodging house residences and absence of family in the vicinity.

This is the 1883 Dewsbury Ellen Flynn, in 1891:

Name: Ellen Flynn
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1883
Relation: Daughter
Father's name: Michael Flynn
Mother's name: Ellen Flynn
Where born: Batley, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Batley
Registration district: Dewsbury


So not likely her.

The Ellen that CherryBlossom found in 1891. Same family in 1881

Household:1881

James FLYNN Head M Male 29 Gateshead Chemical Labourer
Ellen FLYNN Wife M Female 26 Gateshead
Patrick FLYNN Son Male 5 Gateshead Scholar
Ellen FLYNN Dau Female 9 m Gateshead
Ann MANNING Visitor Female 12 Gateshead Scholar


She appears as Helena on IGI

Helena Flynn

Birth: 12 JUL 1880

Christening: 25 JUL 1880 St Joseph, Gateshead, Durham, England

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Parents:
Father: Jacobi Flynn
Mother: Helena Manning

I've an analysis tool which eliminates all births/childhood deaths and this is the only Ellen Flynn that gets through the criteria with a father James. Apart from when I tried extending the age range to take in 1886 onwards then there are 2 born 1887 in Wales that matched the criteria, but I presume they would be too young to be a parent in 1898?

Hi Sandra -- I'm going to copy your PM here for convenience this time, but it's a one-time offer! I absolutely hate having to toggle back and forth between my inbox and the thread, as do most people -- and the info should go here where everybody can see it. Just use the "Add your reply" box at the bottom as we have (don't click on people's names), and it will save you trouble too -- one reply to all!

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Hi Janey,

Thanx for taking the time to reply.

I read with interest your comment of the possibility of Ellen being from Ireland as the same thought had occurred to me .

The only information I have been able to uncover from Ellen's daughter Elizabeth's birth certificate is that Ellen's occupation at that time was " rag sorter "

Information passed on to me by another of Ellen's grandchildren is that they remembered that Ellen was often visited by her sisters Jin ( possibly nickname for Jane ) and Polly who lived in Ashton under Lyne. Unfortunately I dont know if they were older or younger than Ellen or if there were more sblings.

My search continues

Thanx again for your input
Sandra
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Can you tell us when this was that she wasa visited by her sisters -- ah, she had grandchildren at the time. So the sisters were presumably married by then. Still, an idea of the timeframe?

Sorry about clicking on people's names and replying individually but was unsure how to reply, thanx for putting me straight.

The cousin who gave me the info is in her seventies and as Ellen died in 1955 then yes I assume the visits by Ellen's sisters were made after her marriage. I don't know if either of the sisters were married

Polly is often a nickname for Mary, but in the case could it be May - listed below, with father James & 2 other sisters? The original record shows Thomas first as head, with wife Ann next followed by father James & his 2 daughters.


1901 census
182 Currin Lane
Civil Parish Ashton U Lyne
Rural District
Town or Village or Hamlet Ashton U Lyne
Ecclesiastical Parish St Michaels & All Angels
Parliamentary Borough or Division Ashton U Lyne
County Borough, Municipal Borough or Urban District Ashton U Lyne
Administrative County Lancashire
Householder 1
Name James Flynn
Relation to Head of Family Father
Condition as to Marriage Widower
Age Last Birthday 40
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Bricksettes Labourer
Employment Status
Where Born Bridford Yorkshire
Language
Infirmity
Householder 2
Name Kate Flynn
Relation to Head of Family Sister
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 17
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Bridford Yorkshire
Language
Infirmity
Householder 3
Name May Flynn
Relation to Head of Family Sister
Condition as to Marriage
Age Last Birthday 14
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation Servant Not Domestic
Employment Status
Where Born Bridford Yorkshire
Language
Infirmity
Householder 4
Name Ann Sandiford
Relation to Head of Family Wife
Condition as to Marriage Married
Age Last Birthday 23
Sex Female
Profession or Occupation
Employment Status
Where Born Bridford Yorkshire
Language
Infirmity
Householder 5
Name Thomas Sandiford
Relation to Head of Family Head
Condition as to Marriage Married
Age Last Birthday 23
Sex Male
Profession or Occupation Salt Merchants Carter
Employment Status
Where Born Ashton U Lyne Lancs
Language
Infirmity

Thanx Mac this looks very promising as with the exception of Thomas all the others are listed as being born in Bridford Yorks.

I live in Yorkshire and have not heard of Bridford but this could be due to a mispronunciation of Bradford when the census was taken or misreading of the word when the census was transcribed.

This is my best lead yet .

I need to see if I can locate a death for James' wife in either Bradford or Ashton under Lyne somwehere between 1887 when May was born and 1901 when the census was taken .

Unfortunately Christmas festivities today prevent me from getting stuck into it.

Thanks again for the lead

Hi Sandra,

Looking at the original census, I think Kate's age has been mis-transcribed it looks like she should be 12 not 17, which would tie in with a possible birth of Catherine Q1 1888 Bradford. Ann & husband are on the 1911 census still in A-U-L, her birth place is now entered as Bradford & his as Oldham.

Possible marriages for the other sisters, but I don't know which partners are which:
Marriages Dec 1904 (>99%)
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CRUTCHLEY Herbert Ashton 8d 892
Flynn Mary Ashton 8d 892
Lowe George Ashton 8d 892
Sunderland Agnes Ashton 8d 892

Marriages Mar 1908 (>99%)
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ASHTON Albert Ashton 8d 540
FLYNN Kate Ashton 8d 540
HILSON Elizabeth Ashton 8d 540
HYNN Kate Ashton 8d 540
LLOYD Reece Ashton 8d 540

This is a long-shot, but there is this marriage:

Marriages Dec 1880 (>99%)
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>>>FLYNN James Sculcoates 9d 376
Haller Thomas Rickaby Sculcoates 9d 376
Haller Thomas Ricksby Scarbro' 9d 376
Lord Kate Sculcoates 9d 376
>>>Rourke Catherine Sculcoates 9d 376

And 1881 census
FLYNN, James Head Married M 26 1855 Labr Iron Ship Yd
Fermanagh
Ireland VIEW
FLYNN, Catherine Wife Married F 25 1856 Factory Lab Bobbin Maker
Ashton Underlyne
Lancashire VIEW

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RG number:
RG11 Piece:
4747 Folio:
102 Page:
43

Registration District:
Sculcoates Sub District:
Sutton Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Sutton and Stoneferry Municipal Borough:
Address:
1, Kilham Court, Sutton And Stoneferry County:
Yorkshire (East riding)

She is born Ashton Under Lyne, could this be the family connection to the area?

Also, these births in Leeds - have looked at the scanned index and can't be sure that one of the reference numbers haven't been mis-transcribed.

Births Sep 1881 (>99%)
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Flynn Ellen Leeds 9b 442
Flynn Mary Ann Leeds 9b 422

Enjoy the festivities.
Mac