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I am trying to find a birth, marriage and death dates for Elsie Margaret Horne. She married David Smith and they had a child Charles Arthur Smith in London on 13 Sept 1852. Charles immigrated to Australia in mid 1860s. David Smith, a civil engineer died in Portsea Hants in early 1900s. Elsie had a brother Richard(b 1811), and married Ann Spillman (abt 1837). Their children were Richard, Ann, Horatio and Charlotte.
Elsie's father may have been John, a watchmaker (listed on Richard's marriage cert. Any help would be appreciated.
Barbara Horsfield

Do you have son Charles's birth certificate? Any mention of a previous marriage (surname) for Elsie?

No Elsie Horne + David Smith marriage at FreeBMD ...

Have you found any of these people in censuses, to give us an idea of Elsie's and David's date and place of birth, e.g.?

Any chance this might be David Smith in 1881?

Name: David Smith
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Fofarshire, Scotland

Civil Parish: Woolaston
County/Island: Gloucestershire
Street address: Cone

Condition as to marriage: Married
Occupation: Paper Mill Engineer (Eng Driv)


If so ... might they have married in Scotland? Have you tried www.scotlandspeople.gov.uk?


Mind you, David Smiths, engineer, are a dime a dozen in Scotland. ;)


In England, Elsie is just too modern a name for someone born in the earlyish 1800s. Not sure about Scotland.

Unfortunately, there was no Charles Arthur Smith birth registered in England in 1852.

Mabe you could identify the sources of your various information.

DIY, I guess. Somebody else who couldn't spare 15 minutes to read and answer questions.

Marriages Sep 1837
HORNE Richard Chelsea 3 159
SPILLMAN Ann Chelsea 3 159

Births Sep 1845
HORNE Horatio Kensington 3 327

Now we can look for them in censuses.

Great. In 1861, mother Ann is widowed and I can't find them in 1851. Looking for Richard's details for some clues about Elsie, none being forthcoming.

I've managed to find Horatio T Hornblower, though.

1851

Ann Horace 42 - widow, born Lincolnshire
Richard Horace 12
Ann Horace 10
Charlotte Horace 9
Horatio Horace 5
Civil Parish: Paddington

If it were me, I'd fix that at Ancestry: Horne, not Horace.

So no news of Richard.


Anyhow, I'm a Horne of Canterbury a few generations back, was curious just because of the name.

she seemingly had at least one more sibling



London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921

Name: Richard Horne
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1837 <<<<<<< ignore
Spouse Name: Ann Spillman
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 06 Aug 1837
Parish: St Luke, Chelsea
County: Middlesex
Borough: Kensington and Chelsea
Father Name: John Horne
Spouse Father Name: William Spillman

from image:-

Richard
Of Full Age
Bachelor
Address:- Osmond Row
Occupation:- Servant
Father's occupation:- Watch Maker

Ann
Of Full Age
Spinster
Address:- Osmond Row
no occupation shown
Father's occupation:- Farmer

Witnesses:- Henry Horne and Sarah Horne





sylvia

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Richard John Horne
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1838
Baptism Date: 25 Nov 1838
Father's name: Richard Horne
Mother's name: Ann Horne
Parish or Poor Law Union: St Andrew Undershaft
Borough: City of London


Born:- 29 October 1838
Father occupation:- Domestic Servant
Address:- 48 St Mary Axe


??????

ondon, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906

Name: Ann Horne
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1840
Baptism Date: 19 Jul 1840
Father's name: Richard Horne
Mother's name: Ann Horne
Parish or Poor Law Union: Battersea St Mary
Borough:Wandsworth

Born:- June 20 1840
Address:- Battersea
Father:- Carrier



sylvia

according to a tree on ancestry, Richard Horne had 3 siblings


Henry Horne
b. 1816
E Garston, Berkshire, England
Married Sarah


Margrett Horne
1826
no information


Elsie known as Margaret Horne
1830
Basingstoke, Hampshire, England
Married David Smith

Residence:-
1881, 1891 - Millbrook, Hampshire, England
1901 - Shirley, Hampshire, England



David Smith
1829
Guilford, Surrey, England
d before 1906
Portsea, Hampshire, , England




coould this be of any help???


EVERYTHING needs checking on censuses!!!!!





sylvia

from that tree

Charles Arthur Smith
13 Sep 1852
London, Greater London, London, Surrey, United Kingdom


Married 1879 in Australia


another tree says he arrived in Australia in 1875, according to his death certificate



sylvia

There is a David Smith keeps turning up .... he's a Domestic Servant, living in

not sure whether this is the David who married Elsie Margaret



sylvia

There are in fact a lot of Elsies born around that 1830 time according to the London Baptisms site




so why can't we find her?????????????



sylvia

Hi Sylvia

Yes, I am feeling as frustrated as you not being able to find Elsie! David Smith is definitely a civil engineer, cited on Charles Smith death certificate and in the marriage notice for Charles Smith's daughter's wedding.

I am sure that Elsie and David were married as they are both listed on Charles death certifcate. Horatio Horne is definitely a cousin of Charles Arthur Smith as I have a letter from Horatio to Charles in 1901.

Charles' death certificate and the birth certs for his daughter all say he was born in London. THe year is correct assording to his headstone and the day and month correct according to family birthday books. However.... there is no record of a Charles Smith, with David and Elsie as parents, born in London in that year!

Sylvia
One of my assumptions was that Elsie was known by her second name (Margaret) and recorded in hte 1881, 1891, 1901 census - but this is only a guess.

Yes, this is the family Janey.
They were living at 13 Caroline Place Paddington Marylebone, Middlesex and Anne is a widow, with occupation as a carrier. I assume she took over her husband's business. Ann would have been Elsie's aunt by marriage.

I have Horatio's death certificate and Charlotte's probate notice if that is of interest to your Horne background and research.

Thanks, I'll look for a Scottish record, although I have previoulsy found lots of David Smiths in Scotland. As an engineer he could have worked anywhere (eg in India and gone to London for the birth of Charles.

Hi Janey
No, I only have Charles' death certificate which lists David Smith and Elsie Horne as parents.

Okay, so we know two things from brother Richard Horne's marriage record that may be useful:

Father Name: John Horne
Witnesses: Henry Horne and Sarah Horne

Henry could be a brother, or not; Sarah could be a sister, or wife of Henry, or other.

Do you have any idea where Richard & Ann Horne were in 1841? If we could see Richard, at least we'd know whether he reported born in or out of whatever county he was living in. I can't find them at all.

Son Richard "Horace" (you really really should correct that at Ancestry) is shown in 1851 as born c1839 in "St Mary Asee, Middlesex" per Ancestry, and I can't make better of it, except it doesn't look like Mary to me. Daughter Ann born c1841 was born in Battersea, so that's where one would expect to find them in 1841 maybe. But they aren't.


You can just reply to several posts at once here, Barbara. Posts just appear in the order in which they're posted (rather than as replies to other specific posts) and that keeps it simpler.

If your Hornes turn out to have roots in Canterbury, I'll take you up on the info sharing. ;)

Just grist for the mill


1841

Name: M E Horne
Age: 30
Estimated birth year: abt 1811
Gender: Female

Civil Parish: St Clement Danes
Hundred: Westminster
County/Island: Middlesex
Registration district: Strand

Occupation landlady, not born in county.

In its usual clever way in 1841, Ancestry has hived off the other occupant:

Name: W G Horne
Age: 35
Estimated birth year: abt 1806
Gender: Female

Occupation broommaker, not born in county.

The other occupants are a series of young employed women.

Thanks Janey

I will follow up Me Horne when I get back home tonight. BTW I found Horatio in the 1851 census through Find My Past, but I will fix u p Ancestry.