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I have been told in the past that my Grandfather William Elias had a sister Catherine who died when she was small. So far I have found a birth of a Catherine Mary Elias in Merthyr Tydfil in 1903 which fit the timescale, but have been unable to find any more about her and if she did die. Her parents were Robert Elias and Mary Catherine Elias (nee Jones). My grandfather appears in the 1911 census living with his Grandparents Edward and Mary Jones, but no mention of a Catherine. Any info would be greatly appreciated.

There is also

Births Sep 1908
Elias Catherine Mary - Merthyr T. 11a 886

If this is the marriage of your Gt Grandparents, it doesn't fit with your timescale of 1903 for the daughter.


Marriages Mar 1906 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

>>>>>>>Elias Robert - Merthyr T. 11a 865
>>>>>>JONES Mary Catherine - Merthyr T. 11a 865
Parfitt Mary Jane Merthyr T. 11a 865
PHILLIPS Thomas John Merthyr T. 11a 865

Can't find a death for a Catherine Mary Elias but there is a marriage


William J Hicks Catherine Mary Elias Oct-Nov-Dec 1931 Merthyr Tydfil Glamorgan

William Elias had a sister Catherine who died when she was small........

Sharon doesn't actually say her name was Catherine Mary... so there is this one


Births Sep 1908 -
Elias Catherine Ellen - Pwllheli 11b 378


Deaths Mar 1912
Elias Catherine E - 3 - Pwllheli 11b 579

Pwllheli is a long way from Merthyr though and I think this Catherine's parents were called Harris and Kate, as in the 1911 census

ELIAS, Harris Head M 45 1866 Fisherman Carnarvon Pwllheli VIEW
ELIAS, Kate Wife Married
8 years F 35 1876 Carnarvon Llanaelhaiarn VIEW
THOMAS, Llwellyn O Stepson M 13 1898 Carnarvon Llanaelhaiarn VIEW
ELIAS, Harris Son M 8 1903 Carnarvon Abererch VIEW
ELIAS, Thomas Son M 4 1907 Carnarvon Pwllheli VIEW
ELIAS, Catherine E Daughter F 2 1909 Carnarvon Pwllheli VIEW
ELIAS, Laura Daughter F 0 (4 MONTHS) 1911 Carnarvon Pwllheli VIEW


Address:
6 Upper Terrace Lleyn St Pwllehi County:
Carnarvonshire

Mike, my grandfather was born on 14th October 1906, I presumed his sister, who my Grandmother told me was named Catherine, was born after that bearing in mind the date of the marriage.

I am having great fun with this side of my family as my Grandfather's father Robert Elias was very fond of changing his name!!! He was actually born Robert Edwards in Llanrwst and was also know as Robert Roberts and Robert Newton.
Mary Catherine Jones on the other hand was born in Carbon County, Pennsylvania of Welsh parentage and came back to Wales as a child. In 1908 she remarries a Robert Evans and has other children. Unsure if she was divorced or not as I don't know how to find this out.

So we can rule out the 1903 birth that you originally mentioned.

Might be worth checking out the marriage found to see which Catherine it is ( b1903 or 1908 ) and the name of the bride's father.

You were told the sister was named Catherine - but not Catherine Mary ?
You presume she was younger than your grandfather - but don't know for sure ?

Is it possible she was born prior to the marriage and was infact Jones ?
There are several child deaths for Catherine Jones in Merthyr

You have given me something to get my teeth in,

I have a census for 1911 which shows the mother (remarried) and with Robert Evans. The oldest child is Mary C Evans aged 2. I am wondering if this is the sister Catherine?? The birth in 1908 could be her??

Thank you both again for all your help x x

Can I recap.

Mary Catherine Jones married Robert Elias 1906
Mary Catherine Elias married Robert Evans c 1908

???????????
Are you sure she re-married?
You said Robert Elias had several name changes.... is it not the same Robert ?

I suspect if she is any of these it would be the Sept quarter ( so still 2 yrs old on 1911 census)


Births Mar 1908
Evans Mary Catherine - Merthyr T. 11a 896

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Sep 1908
Evans Mary Catherine - Merthyr T. 11a 834



But again - can't see a child death to go with it.


As a matter of interest, are the ages and occupations of Robert Elias and Robert Evans very different ??

Mary Catherine Jones married Robert Elias in 1908, he went on to marry a Violet Thomas in Pontypridd also C1908 under the name of Robert Elias Newton. When Mary Catherine married Robert Gwilym Evans she used the name Mary Catherine Jones not Elias,

I have found Mary C Jones and Robert Evans in 1911 census with a daughter Mary C Evans, but that's as far as I have got. They are living in the same street with my Grandfather who is living with Mary C Jones's parents, Edward and Mary Jones.

Both Robert Evans and Robert Elias were Coal Miners, but in Aberfan especially the street they lived in, Bryntaf, all the men were coal miners/colliery workers.

Sorry, you asked about their age - both born c 1880, although like his name Robert Elias seemed to change this after his marriage to MCJ

S

Oh dear -

Mary C Jones married Rbt Elias in 1906 - not 1908.

You say the same Rbt (now using surname Newton) married Violet Thomas c1908 ... no, it was actually1918
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Sep 1918 --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Newton Robert E -Thomas Pontypridd 11a 974
Thomas Violet M - Newton Pontypridd 11a 974

Have you got this marriage cert ?
Are you sure it's the same Robert ?

Meanwhile Mrs Mary Catherine Elias uses her maiden name when marrying Rbt Evans only 2 years after marryig Rbt Elias ( who is still alive).


Robert Elias / Newton and Robert Evans are both born c 1880 and are both coal miners in Aberfan., and both from the same street.

This all seems very strange !

Hi Mike,

Sorry, when I posted yesterday I was going from memory and also mistyped 1908 instead of 1918

I have both marriage certs you mention above, On both Robert Eias/Newton gives his father as Robert Elias/Newton deceased a Blacksmith, and there is another marriage between those dates to a Beatrice Pitman in 1916 in Pontypridd!!

I am able to confirm it is the same person as during the marriage to Violet Thomas they produced 5 children (my grandfathers half siblings) whom he kept in contact with, and I am still in contact with their offspring, to this date, My Auntie Dora, (who sadly died last year), daughter of Rbt Newton/Violet Thomas, gave me some information but she was very hesitant and said "i was opening a can of worms and not to dig too much"!!

Robert Elias/Newton stayed with Violet Thomas until his death in Caerphilly in 1933.

As far as I know no-one was divorced from anyone, and until recently when I found MCJ's marriage to Rbt Evans, I was under the impression that she hadn't married again until she had heard that Rbt Elias/Newton had died.

Need to confirm that Robert James Edwards was indeed the same person as Robert Elias/Newton, any help would be much appreciated