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I think I have got myself in a bit of a pickle trying to untangle the many BURGESS in Bethnal Green. I have managed to unravel quite a bit but I am stuck on this one - I suspect the record I need has been mis-transcribed.

John Burgess born 1839 marries Elizabeth Jarvis in 1857 in Bethnal Green. I have found this family from 1871 onwards - their eldest son is on the 1871 census (Roman Road, Bethnal Green) as "Willm Jno" born 1860. Father John is a shoe/bootmaker, as he is on his marriage cert and all the records after that. I cannot, however, find them in 1861. The only one I did find (which I originally thought was correct but now have doubts) is for a John Burgess, General Dealer whose son is "John W" born 1860.

I have been trying to find a marriage record which might help - but again, the only one I have doesn't make sense. This is for John Burgess (b1860) to an Elizabeth Gray in 1882 which gives his father name as John Burgess, a Baker. (John the Baker is actually the father of John's father John and he died in 1877) And in any case, I think his name is William!

To re-cap - can anyone find William John Burgess aged about 1 in the 1861 census with parents John and Elizabeth??

Gai

Name: John Burgess
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1859
Baptism Date: 17 Jul 1859
Father's name: John Burgess
Mother's name: Elizabeth Burgess
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St Matthias
Borough: Tower Hamlets

(fathers occ. Shoe maker, birthdate given, but not easy to read, could be 1857, address 23 Barnsley St.)

Chris :)

Thanks Chris. I didn't expect quite so old - the William John in the 1871 census is 11 years old. I'll widen my search!

G

Name: John Buyers
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1835
Spouse Name: Elizabeth Jarvis
Spouse Age: 21
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 15 Aug 1857
Parish: St Matthias, Bethnal Green
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: John Buyers
Spouse Father Name: William Jarvis

(image says Burgess, occ. Shoe Maker)

Thanks Chris - I did manage to find that one - eventually! This is the correct marriage, John's father John is a Baker. It's the reason I came to doubt the 1861 census I had already found.

G

Births Sep 1860 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BURGESS William John Bethnal Gn 1c 247


Deaths Mar 1860 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Burgess John Westminster 1a 252
Burgess John Whitechapel 1c 313
Burgess John Bethnal Gn 1c 238 ***

(could be a death for John born 1857)

1861 possible
BURGASS, John Head Married M 22 1839 General Dealer
Bethnal Green
Middlesex VIEW
BURGASS, Elizabeth Wife Married F 22 1839 Dressmaker
Bethnal Green
Middlesex VIEW
BURGASS, John W Son M 0 (10M) 1861
Bethnal Green
Middlesex VIEW
RG number:
RG09 Piece:
256 Folio:
34 Page:
77

Registration District:
Bethnal Green Sub District:
2 Green Enumeration District:
Ecclesiastical Parish:
St Bartholomews

Civil Parish:
Bethnal Green Municipal Borough:
Address:
2, General Shop, Hinton Terrace, Bethnal Green County:
London, Middlesex

1871

BURGESS, John Lodger M 32 1839 Middlesex VIEW
BURGESS, Elizth Wife F 33 1838 Middlesex VIEW
BURGESS, Willm Jno Son M 11 1860 Middlesex VIEW
BURGESS, Harrt Elizth Daughter F 8 1863 Middlesex VIEW
BURGESS, Angelina Daughter F 5 1866 Middlesex VIEW
BURGESS, James Reuben Son M 0 1871 Middlesex VIEW

RG number:
RG10 Piece:
484 Folio:
29 Page:
52

Registration District:
Bethnal Green Sub District:
Green Enumeration District:
7 Ecclesiastical Parish:


Civil Parish:
Bethnal Green Municipal Borough:
Address:
Roman Rd, Bethnal Green County:
London, Middlesex


Name: Harriet Elizabeth Borgess
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1863
Baptism Date: 5 Apr 1863
Father's name: John Borgess
Mother's name: Elizabeth Borgess
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St Matthew
Borough: Tower Hamlets

(address 4 Tapp St.)

On the marriage cert. occ. for Elizabeth is Dress Maker, could fit in with 1861 census posted by Victoria above)

Chris :)

the above census record does seem to fit with the marriage record of 1857
which gives Elizabeth's occupation as tailoress

address at time of marriage 2 North Street
witnesses to marriage
Joseph Barrett
Sarah Barrett

great minds Victoria ;-))

Victoria - that's the 1861 that I had but have now discounted - the occupations don't add up - "my" John was a shoe/bootmaker as were most of his family except his father who was baker.

Chris - I think the baptism you found is right - in 1861 John (the baker) and his family were in Barnsley Road, Bethnal Green. Of course, John and Elizabeth were not with them but maybe they were not far away. I suspect also that the death is right and that William is the second son. I have found a birth Sept Q 1860 - which means he should be on the 1861 census.

The 1871 you found is right. William John aged 11 (!!) And thanks for finding Harriets baptism - that one had escaped me! A baptism for William John would be helpful :)

G

Name: Angelina Burgess
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1865
Baptism Date: 20 Aug 1865
Father's name: John Burgess
Mother's name: Elizabeth Burgess
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St Matthias
Borough: Tower Hamlets

Name: James Rueben Burgess
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1871
Baptism Date: 19 Feb 1871
Father's name: John Burgess
Mother's name: Elisabeth Burgess
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St Matthias
Borough: Tower Hamlets

(address Roman Road)

Yes, William's is the Baptism that's hiding so far!...

Name: William John Burgan
Record Type: Baptism
Estimated Birth Date: abt 1860
Baptism Date: 22 Jul 1860
Father's name: John Burgan
Mother's name: Elizabeth Burgan
Parish or Poor Law Union: Bethnal Green St Matthias
Borough: Tower Hamlets

(born 30th June, address 23 Barnsley Rd.)

Victoria - the marriage of John and Elizabeth in 1857 is correct - the witnesses are John's sister Sarah and her husband Joseph.

Chris - I have Angelina's baptism - thanks.

I'm even more convinced now that the 1861 above is not right - and that John W, the first child was baptised 1859 and died 1860 as Chris has above.

So, I am a little further forward - thanks guys!

G

Ha! Crossed postings! Well done, Chris - you are a STAR !! Now, where are they in 1861 - ??


Thanks Chris!

Well, I've looked for all the neighbours of John the baker (his father) in Barnsley Road and they are not there! No. 23 is occupied by an entirely different family.

Maybe the 1861 is right afterall and he tried his hand at shop keeping for a little while before returning to boot making. Dates are all correct, except John W should be William John. Am I making this too hard? I am sure I came across other records with John Burgess "General Dealer" and discarded them - this also made me think that the 1861 above is a different family. Oh why couldn't they all have lovely usual names!

Gai

No luck here either I'm afraid, theyr'e either well hidden or he was 'minding' the shop perhaps, lol :-)

Chris :)

I don't think you can discount the 1861 record, everything else fits.

John may well have been a bootmaker/shoemaker but had a shop which sold other items.

People often interchanged first and middle names so John William / William John is the same person.

Also, as the 1861 census was taken on the night of 31st March, the 10mth age given for John W wasn't far out.

Chris :)

Thanks both - you may be right but I thought I had found the "general dealer" family in a later census - I can't find them now though! I will bow to your better judgement and accept that John W and William John are the same person and that a boot maker can be a general dealer if only for a year or two!

Anyhow - thanks again.

Gai