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Yes ty AG.

I'm def not taking out a trial sub to Ancestry as i'm not going to contact the person who has the tree.
I have been doing the Porteous family tree for my friend and this William is connected through James wife. (Anderson family)

So thankyou for everyone's help and all the info given, it really has been much appreciated.

I shall not waste anymore time on looking for Willian in the census in 1911 7 1921.

Thankyou

Florence in the hebrides

William 1907 was definitely an illegitimate son of Elizabeth, per the details quoted from the birth cert by Greyghost at 14:18.

Someone has suggested that Elizabeth had a child or children out of wedlock, which makes them illegitimate

You might find it worthwhile to have a free trial on Ancestry and make contact with the person on whose tree the info has been posted

Anderson is by no means an unusual name, which doesn’t make searching any easier

I looked at the Kinloss one and the Elgin one

I didnt decide they were illegitimate children!

No ErikaH i dont. The original info came from a tree on Ancestry posted on here by GreyGhost

I ask again - do you have birth certs?

Possibly William below, in Rafford, near Forres ??.

Is this one of the ones you looked at, Florence?
There were three William Andersons aged 3 or 4 in Morayshire in 1911.
One in Kinloss is with Anderson parents and siblings, so an be ruled out.
Another one, in Elgin, has middle name Henry - although he seems to be without Anderson family members, just as the child below in Rafford is. Families and others of various surnames are in the same "household" - probably various farm cottages under one farm name.
:

ANDERSON WILLIAM
1911
M
4
140/ 2/ 8
Rafford
Moray

There are no other Andersons living with this child.
I'm guessing he's on a farm with various workers' cottages .
George Cameron is a farm grieve in 1901, living in one of Inchstellie Cottages, Rafford. Several other families in 1901 have the same address, though in different households.

In 1911 this William is with:

George Cameron, 54,
Jane Cameron, 55
Maggie A Cameron, 10
Ellen Clark, 45
Tina Frew, 18
Jenny Frew, 23
Alexander Hendrie, 24
James James, 0
Elsie James, 31
James James, 36
Catherine James, 2
James Jeans, 14
James Lawrence, 32
Jessie Lawrence, 35
Lizzie M Lawrence, 11
Catherine McCrea, 24
Colin McRitchie, 51
Elizabeth McRitchie, 22 [ and seven other McRitchies ]
Helen Ritchie, 47
John Royan, 20
Mary Stewart, 14
Bella Strathdee, 15 [ and 3 other Strathdees ]
Hector McK Sutherland, 2

Ty AG for confirming that so I can rule her out altogether.

Erika, I have no idea where William is. I paid to look at 2 entries on SP in 1911 and neither are the correct ones so its a mystery.

Its been exhausting and sometimes, we never get all the answers.

I was only curious about William & Alice as to why they wasn't with his parents on the census and who they was living with . but now we know Alice belongs elsewhere so that leaves William.

Thanks for the extra info AG

William isn't with Elizabeth and family in 1911:

ANDERSON ELIZABETH
1911
F
24
125/ 2/ 13
Alves
Moray

In same household:

William, 81
Ann, 76
William, 59
George, 35
Sophia, 26
Williamina, 20
Annie, 6
Janet, 4

Greyghost has viewed William's birth cert on SP.
He's Elizabeth's child, but Alice May isn't.

Do you have birth certs for the two Anderson children you have decided are Elizabeth's illegitimate offspring?

Where are they in 1911?

This will be Alice May in 1921:

ANDERSON
ALICE M
1921
F
12
685/11 12/ 18
Leith South
Midlothian

Also in the household are:

Louis Anderson, 57
Helen Anderson, 51
Thomas W Anderson, 25
Helen C Anderson, 23
Mary K Anderson, 19 [ Mary Kennedy Anderson, mmn Anderson ]
Louis D Anderson, 17 [ Lewis David, mmn Anderson ]
Ada I Anderson, 14 [ Ada Isabella, mmn Anderson ]
Beatrice M Anderson, 9 [ Beatrice Maud, mmn Anderson ]
Hannah E Anderson, 7 [ Hannah Edwards Anderson, mmn Anderson ]



Marriage of the parents:

ANDERSON LEWIS
ANDERSON HELEN
1891
667 / 19
Kirkliston

So Alice May is NOT an illegitimate daughter of Elizabeth.

I think the confusion is because there are 2 children called Alice.

The one born in 1917 is the daughter of Williamina Anderson Elizabeth's sister who James and Elizabeth adopted and appears on the 1921 census with them.

I was meaning Alice Anderson b 1908 Born South Leith and William Anderson b 1907.Born before Elizabeth married James Porteous. Where are they in 1921?

Re William yes I considered that marriage to Janet Sutherland which is great ty.

Its ok the tree owner isnt a member of my friends immediate family.

It was just the 1921 census and those 2 childrens whereabouts but ty for your help.

Florence you contacted me by PM after I posted info on Page 1 (x 2) asking who had the Ancestry tree with the info. I'd posted. At the time you didn't want all the info on the thread but are now asking about William Anderson 1907.
Apologies if it looks a bit confused, no time at present to tidy it up. Will remove if you wish.
-------
The tree is that of a Ruth Renner in New Zealand. She definitely has him as the illegitimate son of Elizabeth and has listed Alice as a Porteous. Is it odd that she named second son William also?

Her tree also says Alice married a Scott Falconer and on SP there is the record, she marries as both Anderson and Porteous. Scott died 1989 in Forres, no birth info. but Scotland's People shows he was aged 75, a mere 14 years younger than Alice born 1910. But the 1921 posted by ArgyllGran has a 1917 birth for her not 1910, which matches the age at death but not the fact she died as Alice Porteous not Falconer.

NO - just checked - her death also registered as Falconer in Elgin (will put that on the thread and the following). Looks to be a 1961 marriage in Kelvin RD and his death 1985 in Forres from the Ancestry tree (no mmn shown on SP.)

Have put some bits on the thread.

As for William - the birth she refers to is in Forres, she has the address on the tree. Curiosity got the better of me I'm afraid and I bought the record which I've attached so you don't have to - have had spare credits hanging around for ages. Mother Lizzie Anderson. He died 1985 Forres.
(EDIT TODAY - Birth 4.3.1907, North Road, Forres to Lizzie Anderson Domestic servant domiciled at Gateside, Parish of Alves)

William may have married a Janet Helen Ann Sutherland in Forres 1927. She was born 1906 in Forres and died 1992 Forres aged 86

--------
Also -
I entered James Johnstone Porteous in Ancestry Search members trees - 10 came up. The first was "a Stephan Family tree" which is managed by Ruth Renner and that is where the info came from. Maybe she pressed 0 instead of 7 when she entered Alice as being born in 1910 rather than 1917.

AG posted Elizabeth Robertson Porteous' death record, the certificate is on that tree.

So I bought credits but neither of the marriages are the correct ones grrr

Sorry to bother peeps again but I'm writing up family history notes for my friend and it occurred to me that the 2 children Alice May Anderson b 1908 leith and William Anderson b 1907 are not traceable on the 1921 census?

They would have been too young to be married or living independently wouldnt they? So how come they are not on the 1921 census with James & Elizabeth?

I have looked at Scotlands people and there are 2 marriage records, for Alice May Anderson one in 1928 to a Alexander Hilli Lindsay St Giles and the other is
to a James Hamilton 1933 Canongate.

I looked back over all the info I have been given but not seeing anything for these 2 children on the 1921 census?

There are too many William Anderson marriages to find the correct one.

Just pottering around - not relevant to original query:


On James's death cert, his second wife's name is written as Sacilia Nalaune - presumably how the registrar heard it - or maybe what the informant thought.

The informant (a friend - no relation) has an unusual name and may be still living , aged in his mid 80s.
Informant's wife died in Edinburgh in 2022, aged 86.

Still can't find anything about Cecilia, before marriage or after James's death.
She was alive in 1967, when she would have been 80, per DOB given in 1939, if that date is correct, and if that's Cecilia in 1939 and not Elizabeth..

Unfortunately, Edinburgh ERs on Ancestry only go up to 1966.

:-D :-D

True!
Somehow I had had a mental image of a dining car waiter on a train - not no, of course he would be standing behind the buffet.