General Chat

Pat, Can't fault you again 100% spot on. Think you can see what I'm saying too? Thats why I mentioned Scots being brought in. My last word on here --- the sooner Paisley goes -- the sooner there will be peace --- sorry if that offends anyone but I find him such a 'hate mongrer' who never wants to talk peace --- and as for a Rev? what God does he follow??

The sad thing about all this is Ireland, Scotland, Wales and England live happily side by side. The British The Irish have and always have had since Independence a special relationship that neither has with any other Country, makes things like what happens in the North of Ireland even more sad as any part of the UK besides there the same factions can live happy and content without hatred ot hurt to each other. Coming up to the 12th of July Celebrations there is a mass exodus from the North Of Ireland, can't blame the people. I could not live under those circumstances the continious hatred its soul destroying. Pat x

Ann I do not normally say this on the board but yes I have lived nearly half my life in Ireland lol. I didn't just march a couple times with these people. I may not have made myself very clear with reference to the presbyterian remark, I am sorry I was just trying to explain to folks there are Protestants and Protestants and Presbyterians are very strict and not a bit like Church Of England/Ireland. It was Ian Paisley that nearly blew a gasket when the shops were being allowed open on SUNDAYS!!! no debate no times change and move on he lives by the BIBLE, he calls the Catholics PAPISTS lol. derogatory terms used by a disgusting prejudice little man. Mike yes Lennon (Plays for Celtic) the Northen Irish Footballer who's life and the final straw member of his familiy they were threatened had to leave the Northern Ireland football team. this is only in the last two years shameful. Pat x

Ann, We might be speaking of our lifetime --- but the hatred goes way back --- what I'm trying to say is the kids brought up today have NO idea why they hate Protestants?Catholics --- its all in built? like the kids in Palestine?Israel who throw petrol bombs --- they do it for the 'cause' as do in N I ??? Stop and ask them why?? ---- bet you the answer is 'we hate em' ask why? ' dont know its the way we were brought up'???

Mike we are speaking of in our lifetime not that of when the scots planters arrived. On a somewhat lighter note - Queen Victoria and Bismarck ) could never agree to talk on any topic - except that of Ireland. But apparently they both agreed that the Irish Problem would be solved if all the Dutch were sent to Ireland and all the Irish sent to Holland - within a period of time - the industrious dutch would have turned Ireland around and the Irish would have neglected to look after the dykes and drowned! I came across that in a book - over 30 years ago and never forgot it. Ann

Yes a very good debate Mike and Ann and Jacquie too.. Thanks to Roxanne for putting this up. I totally agree with you Mike & your assessment, many people especially the young. Unless the way I was brought up having an Irish father but being taught English History (obviously because I was educated in London) I had to go through learning Irish History too, not easy Oliver Cromwell was The Great Protector and the scurge of the Irish, Queen Victoria The glorious 60 years rule, but seen as the Marie Antoinette against the Irish i.e statement let them eat cake during the Irish famine, sitting back and ignoring the starving Irish. I find it very interesting as my father was the only Irish we have in our family lol, doing the family tree is very strange as I have found some Ancestors who were in the British Army and served and also discharged in Ireland, all very strange to think this mongrel sitting typing here has the people who were ruled and the Soldier of the Rulers in the same Tree, if you understand my meaning all so perculiar, maybe thats a good reason to be an Internationlist. Pat x

Ann, Sticking my nose in again! lol They brought Presbyterians from Scotland to out vote --

Pat I know you said you father was Irish but do you mind my asking did you ever live in Ireland be it North or South? And for your information - Protestants were all those lumped under one umbrellas who were NOT catholic or saved - Church of Ireland, Methodist, Baptist, Presbyterian. And you still have not admitted that the One House One Vote as you call it - the council elections rule applied to all - religion did not enter this one. Ann

Ann, I have really enjoyed this debate as its something I've studied......... this is 2005 and this crap shouldn't be happening now! 100 yrs ago maybe -- but not now Thanks for good debate xx

Pat, Off subject-- but don't forget some football clubs never had Catholic/Protestant /Black players?? As for Londonderry --- it was the 'home' of Protestant wealthy who hated Belfast --- mainly for their direct shipping to England. ?

Mike the sad thing is that in N. Ireland - Irish History was not taught in state schools (possibily in Cath. schools) - I personnally found that strange. In the beginning and I am speaking of late sixties and I could see two sides - I began to read and to discuss and to ask question of my N. Irish friends and inlaws. Not just once but several times over the years I was told I would never understand as I was not born there! Going on marches with people are one thing and living with them in the community is entirely another. What is happening over the past few days is tragic and tonight I hear that a toddler has been hurt as his father's car has been attacked. Mans inhumanity to man. Ann

Ann, I have to agree with your comment about the Labour Party doing no favours to Northern Ireland, I always felt they hoped it would all go away, a sort of head in the sand attitude, I think that's because they did not know what to do. Too many mistakes had been made and they were coming back to haunt them. The O'Neil and Craig and all the other Protestant leaders of Stormont were allowed a free reign & discrimination was rife. I do not understand that anyone working in Halland & Wolff could be Catholic it was common knowledge that the most famous Shipyard in the World & possibly the biggest Employers in the North before the 1970's would not employ Catholics. Maybe I should state here for some people reading this when talking Protestant we are not talking Church of England or Church of Ireland we are talking Presbyterian Protestants a very strict religion. Pat x

Sorry Ann, Not you personally but others who have no idea

Mike - am confused - to what exactly are you referring when you say do not comment unless you have read the history? Ann

Sorry Ann, But going back long before the start of this or the last century --- it was English /Protestant/ Landowners who bled dry the predominantly Catholic small farmers ----- I'm not getting into a discussion unless people actually know the reasons for potatoe famine etc .. Home Rule Bill etc just to say - that is why there are long held 'grudges' but I do believe also that half the Orangemen etc and Republicans actually haven't read their history! How many 15yr olds marching with the orange sash ACTUALLY know what it means??? How many Catholics ACTUALLY know why they were opressed?? Not many......I'm one of these - dont comment unless you at least have the courtesy to read the history? Great topic time we had a good debate

Pat - you mentioned 'One man one vote' with regard to homes - which is the council vote. The law in this instance applied to all religions - it was not the catholic who was discriminated against in this instance in council elections. You have not clarified this. You mention Londonderry - I lived there for a time - as well as close to Belfast and my husbands timing to return to N. Ireland was wonderful 1967! As to the 'B' Specials the auxilliary police force and I would mention the RUR - they had catholics in them and it took a brave catholic man/woman to remain in the police force whether regular or otherwise. Ann

Ann, 'Craig also altered local government boundaries to the advantage of unionism enabling his party to control the nationalist city of Londonderry. Unionist discrimination against Catholics in housing and employment help explain why Northern Ireland's one party state collapsed in violence 50 years later. The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was formed in January 1967 as a response to four decades of Unionist discrimination against Catholics. It had five demands: one man, one vote in council elections; ending of gerrymandering of electoral boundaries; machinery to prevent discrimination by public authorities and to deal with complaints; fair allocation of public housing; repeal of Special Powers Act and disbanding of B Specials, a predominantly Protestant auxiliary police force'. The first Civil Rights March was on 5th October 1968 in Londonderry. That is copy and Paste job from the BBC History website:- http://www.bbc*co*uk/history/war/troubles/origins/nicivil*shtml As a young person growing up in a socialist environment my father (who was Irish) brought me on many Marches for many causes my first BIG march was against the Vietnam War. I was on many other Marches with the likes of Eamon McCann, Bernadette Devlin and Tony Benn. I have read extensively on the subject. I would recomend Bernadette Devlin's 'The Price Of My Soul' and Eamon McCann's 'War & An Irish Town' for anyone who would like an insight into the people and the times. The first objective was 'One Man One Vote', I do not know your circumstances but maybe you are meaning National Elections when you would vote a candidate to Westminster rather than to Stormont. Catholics were not allowed to sit at Stormont, so they could not be voted into it. Pat x

Mike - although the shipyard was predominently a protestant workforce - there were catholics who worked there. Likewise there were predomently catholic businesses. I found it strange when reading the 'Situations Vacant' to see the words 'Christians only need apply' - I thought I was in a christian country - then I discovered that this was referring to 'saved again' and paisley type of religions and thus was barring both catholic and protestants from applying. The Labour Party did N. Ireland no favours at all - they never set up a labour party in N. Ireland and the working class of all communities could have come together and I am going back to the twenties and thirties on this one at least. Ann

Pat, 100% ...... unfortunatley we see the 'troubles' in a modern context. They aren't -- they are deep rooted from 100yrs or more when Catholics had no rights at all -- especially in Belfast shipyards all employees were protestants. I and probably loads of other people wonder how we can still have this sectarianism today -- but its taught from day one, the hatred against English protestants and English landowners. The incredible thing is the troops actually went into protect Catholics ... The English landowners are the ones encouraged the Orange/Loyalist so they could protect their money? I'm not on either side - just have read and studied both.

Ann this is where my question of when was there last peace in N. Ireland stems from... bit like England really.. War of the Roses etc etc.... the question should be when was there really peace anywhere!!! I have never been to any part of Ireland but I have relations there and it is somewhere I have always wanted to go both North and South. It is all very sad. Jacquie xxxx