General Chat

My understanding (I wish I could sort the bible out of the boxes piled up) was that those powers ended with the apostles. Nope, cant believe this is a gift - Jesus and his father both offered simplicity in worship, not the use of unexplained and unexplainable performances. I remember tht the apostles were concerned by some of the practices creeping into congregations in Acts - this being one and when I do get my bible out I shall read up on it. I do remember getting the impression Paul was most concerned that it was getting out of hand and the congregations were losing the truth.

Heather, I have to ask (and I'm sorry if you have answered this before) - do you believe that people in Bible times spoke in the gift of Tongues?

In the days following Jesus' death I believe that to ensure the fast spreading of the word the apostles and some disciples were given the gift of tongues - that is, the ability to immediately speak foreign languages - very handy if you are sailing to Italy or France. I do not believe this was anything BUT the amazing ability to speak languages without the time required to learn them conventionally. It was for a purpose, the purpose being to spread the word quickly throughout the known world. Thanks for all your efforts guys but I stand by my own thoughts - and I cannot be moved to believe in this part of some sections of the christian church. Nite nite, God bless.

Even if you could find your bible Heather it would be difficult to find any scriptures to support or deny the theory that spiritual gifts were just for the apostles and the arly church, to see them through the difficult times of persecution after Jesus' death and resurrection, for the reason that the new testament is all about early Christian times. We do not have scriptural evidence for what happened after that. But many people believe as you have said. It is called the cessationist argument. Cessationists usually believe the miraculous gifts were given only for the foundation of the Church, during the time between the coming of the Holy Spirit on Pentecost, c. AD 33 (see Acts 2) and the fulfillment of God's purposes in history, usually identified as either the completion of the last book of the New Testament or the death of the last Apostle. Various reasons are suggested: - perhaps the gifts were neglected and faded from use. - perhaps the gifts were withdrawn with the death of the apostles. - perhaps the gifts were taken away as a form of discipline from God on unbelief or disobedience. A detailed study of church history does show long periods where there is little or no reference to the gifts of the holy Spirit. It would take a whole book to detail why, but through different trains of thought & church leaders, the Christian church has sadly divided into groups which all have different views on this and many other issues. But God made it quite clear in scripture that times would change on the earth and the church would change too. And in more recent times, with the pressure of war, terrorism, fear of the future, more and more Christian churches are seeking to restore the biblical meaning and depth of relationship with God, including utilising spiritual gifts. Many people are urgently seeking truth and meaning, as shown by the popularity and success of the Alpha course previously mentioned. Churches which model to new believers a personal relationship with a living and powerful God are the churches which are growing world wide. D

Nite Heather! Thanks for the lively debate today! Hope to have a chance to discuss stuff with you again soon! Best wishes, Denise

Hi Penny and Tracey, thanks for joining in! So busy catching up on Heather's questions I haven't had time to find out much about what you two think on this topic? You still around? You Down Under guys up yet too? D

Heather and David, you are both right of course. God would not want to confuse us, He is a God of order. St Paul tells us that God would not want to confuse us. 'For God is not the author of confusion ---' to quote Paul in his letter to the Corinthians Chap 14 verse 33. In this chapter Paul is discussing the spiritual gifts including 'tongues', for use in building up the churches. It's all here in Chapters 12,13 and 14, 1 book of Corinthians. The overall thrust, as I read it, is that we should seek the spiritual gifts on offer from God, use them in an orderly and curteous way, not to upset and confuse anyone, but that unless we have love ( for oneanother ) none of these many, different gifts (of which tongues is way down the scale in importance) is of any value. The purpose of speaking in tongues and the way the gift is to be used is made clear here by St Paul. Although we know that some churches teach that the gifts are not for this day and age, pointing out that Paul said that tongues will pass away when 'that which is perfect has come --- ' Other Christians will say that the perfect has not yet come, and only when we see Christ face to face (verses 8 - 12, 1 Corinthians) will there no longer be a need for speaking in tongues. Go to the source is what I say - and as good genealogists you know it makes sense. ((- : Love, Joyx

Good morning all, Just been reading through the thread. Heather, I too was brought up believing in the cessation of all 'gifts' with the passing of the apostles. Indeed, I viewed all such manifestations with deep suspicion. As I grew older and moved around many different denominations, listening to many preachers and evaluating what I heard with my own bible reading and asking God for wisdom, I realised that the gifts given by the Holy Spirit were available for all believers in all ages. So I very cautiously embarked on finding out about the different gifts. I'll quote a Bible passage now, if you don't mind, as it says it so much better than I can. I am using the Good News Translation as it is in modern words: it's from 1 Corinthians Chapter 14. It is love, then, that you should strive for. Set your heart on spiritual gifts, especially the gift of proclaiming God's message. The one who speaks in strange tongues, does not speak to others but to God, because no one understands him. He is speaking secret truths by the power of the spirit. But the one who proclaims God's message speaks to the people and gives them help, encouragement, and comfort. The one who speaks in strange tongues helps only himself, but the one who proclaims God's message helps the whole church.' So, by reading this passage and other ones that are very similar, I realised that it was possible to be speaking in a spiritual language that directly addressed God and bypassed different human languages. However, other passages in Corinthians also indicated that not everybody has the same gifts, and that the gifts to be most eagerly sought are the ones that everybody understands and help strengthen them in their faith. I decided then that my early training had been wrong to deny the gift of tongues, and if it came along, then I would use it biblically, but not deliberately seek it. I now feel quite at home with the use of tongues in private circumstances or small groups where everyone agrees, but do not like it in church services where there is no interpretation, and when many people speak at once. Vonny

Your arguments are very convincing, but my personal belief is that the Gift of Tongues means the abilty to very rapidly learn other languages, as some have the Gift of Mathematics and Logic, others the Gift of Healing. When people with these gifts enter appropriate professions they become the best. Even those who don't enter a profession may still do things which to some may appear miraculous.

Grampa Jim, I too believe there are people with a gift of rapidly learning languages. My sil discovered that he had this gift when he began studying Hebrew and Greek, getting first class honours with very little effort. But the gift of tongues in the biblical sense is something else again, and truly does exist. Vonny, thanks for sharing your own experience and for the bible passage. Joyxx

Thanks for dropping in while we were asleep over here, Vonny! Your clear explanation of your own investigation into this gift of God was very useful. I will be out all day today, but I am looking forward to catching up on further discussion on here tomorrow. Meanwhile, take care all, love Denise

I dont know but when I read that passage it seems to me that it is a telling off - a gentle one, but a definite telling off. The one who speaks in a strange language helps no one but himself. To me this is (actually quite a nervous) admonishment.

I quite agree Heather, I think Paul was very unimpressed with what the Corinthian believers were doing with their gifts! But it did show me that a spiritual language was a real thing. It is actually the only personal gift. All others are to be used for teaching, helping or encouraging other people and as such, are to be desired. Vonny

It may have existed , but Im not sure about it being valid as a 'God given' gift. There is no mention that Paul had this language. He is a man, with mortal imperfection and as such I get the feeling from his letters that he is nervous of splitting the congregations but he certainly doesnt approve. The congregations were made up of people from all other religions at that time, including pagan ones and I am wondering if this was another of those pagan items dragged in and allowed to continue to pacify new members (sadly). Reading that scripture again, I can see an alternative explanation - the use of 'strange tongues' could very well be just 'foreign tongues' (foreigners were called 'strangers' up to only a century or so back - indeed in our city we still have a 'Strangers Hall' where the incomers would meet). If this is the case, can Paul be saying, Stop showing off that you have the power to speak in foreign languages, you arent helping anyone in the congregation who doesnt speak that language, only God will understand'. I wont add any more as we are in a 'round in circles' situation here ! but each to his own conscience - in my opinion this 'gift' is not God given and I am concerned just where/who this language and confusion of the truth is coming from. I would most definitely steer clear of any congregation where this happens.

It's been good to share on this thread Heather. I certainly respect your views. It took me at least 40 years of evaluation to get to the position I am at now. best regards. From 1 Corinthians chapter 12 V1. Now concerning what you wrote about the gifts from the Holy Spirit I want you to know the truth about them, brothers. v4. There are different kinds of spiritual gifts, but the same Holy Spirit gives them. There are different ways of serving, but the same Lord is served. There are different abilities to perform service, but the same God gives ability to everyone for their particular service. The Holy Spirit's presence is shown in some way in each person for the good of all. The Spirit gives one person a message full of wisdom while to another person the same Spirit gives a message full of knowledge. One and the same Spirit gives faith to one person, while to another person he gives the power to heal. The Spirit gives one person the power to work miracles; to another the gift of speaking God's message, and to yet another, the ability to tell the difference between gifts that come from the Spirit and those that do not. To one person, he gives the ability to speak in strange tongues,(other versions use unknown tongues) and to another, he gives the ability to explain what is said. But it is one and the same Holy Spirit that does all this, as he wishes. He gives a different gift to each person.

Just to add briefly to what Yvonne has said, and in answer to Heather's last posting, 1Corinthians 14 v18 does say that Paul in fact had and exercised the gift of tongues. He says' I speak in tongues more than any of you' but goes on in the next verse to caution the people of Corinth about how they use this gift. But he certainly approved its correct use in private and public, and knew it was from God. I respect your opinions Heather. We are all on a journey, and the more we each investigate all the possibilities in life, the more we learn and the wider our choices. As Vonny has said, it is up to each of us to challenge our own selves to search out the truth. I am so glad this thread is turning out to be an open debate, not a argument. Jesus said 'behold I stand at the door and knock'- the choice to open the door and let him in is left up to each of us. D