General Chat

..as I said before, one of my cats cleared the neighbourhood!! :-D :-D :-D

I've seen some great ratting terriers. Now if you could train a moggie to do that......

:-D :-D :-D

Oh, no. I knew a gamekeeper with a fantastic ratting Jack Russell, who liked cats. :-D

Even I, a 'cat person' can turn an 'I'll kill anything' terrier into a selective hunter..
I 'socialised' a 4 month old rescue patterdale puppy for an agricultural student once.
The other students were terrified of him, as soon as he saw your hand - he was attached to it :-S It was (strangely) only hands he bit - not sure if he had been hit - but probably.
Not by his owner (who loved him to bits), but by whoever had him before.
I agreed to look after him, and attempt to teach him the difference between vermin and 'others'.
I had 2 small children and 2 cats at the time.

The agreement was that the student had him from 4:30pm to 9 or 10 pm, every evening to teach him ratting - I had him the rest of the time.
I set him up in the garden with a kennel, and large sturdy run with a wooden rail along the top. The cats would sit on this rail - the dog would go for them, and a paw with a claw would 'suggest' he gave up.

After a short time, he was allowed out of the run and into the garden to play with the children (and me). Cats usually disappeared.
One attempted bite - a tap with a rolled up newspaper and deposited in the run taught him it wasn't acceptable.
Newspaper was used as it didn't really hurt, and it wasn't a human hand.

My children were also told, when he went for them, to put their hand into a fist. The dog (puppy) had a small mouth and couldn't actually bite a fist! Well, not too badly.

We went for long walks. He loved to grab hold of a knot on the end of a rope, and be swung around - basically getting rid of his excess energy.
At night, he was kept in a large dog cage, so the cats weren't worried, but the little bar steward liked to go out at 4am for a pee. I'd take him out on a lead. :-(

When the student picked him up, he'd come in and make a fuss of the cats in front of the puppy (initially while I held the pup)

After 3 months, he no longer slept in the cage, got on VERY well with the cats, and his owner said he was an excellent ratter :-D

I gave him the final, ultimate, socialising test - crossed my fingers and took him to the school gates.
The obvious happened - all the children wanted to stroke him, and not once did he bite - or even 'take a hand in his mouth', - he was so happy at all the attention, his tail was going ten to the dozen!! :-D

I took him every single day after that.

At the end of the year, the student got new lodgings and took him away.
Apparently, he ONLY went for rats - not rabbits, could be walked in the street off the lead, wouldn't go for cats, and never bit anyone . :-D
It was hard work, as we were working with 'damaged' goods, but it IS possible to train them to just go for what you want them to go for :-D

Edit: Just like to add, that the pup got lots of cuddles too - when he was good, he was adorable!! :-D :-D :-D

Sounds like a contradiction in terms to me :)

Is it not strange, that, in the article, they suggest introducing stoats, weasels and polecats to the sanctuary to remove the rats?

Wouldn't the regular use of extremely well behaved Jack Russells /Patterdales be more useful?

Yes, I know well behaved 'ratting' Jack Russels and Patterdales are a rarity, but I've known a couple!!

yes, the RSPB carry out lots of predator control. Foxes, stoats, crows, etc. I can see the need to do it, fair enough, but they need to be absolutely open about it and not hide it away for fear of losing donations and legacies.

Not to mention their huge pension deficit......and their connection with wind turbine farms.

..but the RSPB has also killed birds in it's own sanctuary!!

It makes one wonder what sort of overpaid plank runs the organisation :-(

Because once we domesticate animals we then have the responsibility for their behaviour. You could say its nature for dogs like Japanese Tosas to attack people so we should just let them get on with it. It boils down to what is acceptable damage.

That's exactly how nature works - if left to her own devices. Once you introduce a man made factor, you have to manage it.

That's what I mean by confirmation bias. Cat owners - and anyone else who has a vested interest in anything - will always look for excuses. The stark fact, like it or not, is that domestic cats kill wildlife and are an issue for many species.

To refuse to take responsibility for something you own (I know - you don't own a cat, it owns you, which doesn't stand up to scrutiny) is not really common sense, I have to say.

But when all is said and done, there are no cats anymore where I live so I only look on the subject from the point of view of an interested bystander.

Why is it a cop out Eldrick

You own domestic animal and they in turn give much back to their owners

Each animal has been designed by nature to have their instincts and that can't be altered by an owner or by any environment they exist in

If nature had made the food chain so animals exist by hunting each other then that's how nature works to keep the various types at a controlled level

Any type will breed out of control otherwise

....but rat poison kills a lot of raptors - better the cat kills the rat than the poisoned - but not quite dead - rat kills the raptor.

Here's an interesting article - shows the RSPB aren't exactly innocent of wildlife destruction:

http://raptorpolitics.org.uk/2017/03/08/rat-poison-again/

The alternative to the poison, will eat eggs and young birds, more so than cats!!

Interesting to read of the conflicting views between opposing factions. I still maintain that the non partisan studies are the only places to strip away the confirmation bias. And the RSPB depend on donations and legacies from the very people who are most likely to own cats, so they are not going to kill the golden egg layers.

I just think that people who own cats have a responsibility to other wildlife and whilst some take that seriously, most don't seem to. To say that it's a cats instinct to hunt is very true but it's also a cop out that avoids the vicarious responsibility of owning one.

We have had three cats in over 40 years each one was from a kitten and was neutered asap so they never went roaming to reproduce

They liked to roam to take a look around and be nosy and just wander. Yes they did hunt if something took their interest but this is just instinct
They all had their own loo places in our garden . Yes I can't say they didn't mark their territory elsewhere but other cats don't come into ours to crap either

If every cat owner got their pets neutered/spayed, a lot of the predation spreading of disease and harassment/injury to neutered cats would slow down.
Interesting views here:

eandstyle/2016/sep/21/miaow-row-over-harm-done-by-domestic-cats-sends-fur-flying

Power of the grouse estates? Please. Another opinion, but wrong.

The primary threats to the Scottish wildcat are habitat loss, persecution and hybridisation and disease transfer from feral domestic cats, Felis catus.
Neaves, Hollingsworth et al

The greatest problem facing the Scottish wildcat is hybridization with feral or
domestic cats.
Kerry SNH 2011

The wildcat (Felis silvestris ssp.) is a conservation concern largely due to introgressive hybridization with its congener F. s. catus, the common domestic cat. Because of a recent divergence and entirely overlapping ranges, hybridization is
common and pervasive between these taxa threatening the genetic integrity of remaining wildcat populations.
Driscoll et all 2010

And numerous other academic non partisan studies. Look them up.

So there we have it - a clear correlation between domestic and feral cats being the main cause of decline of a native species. Of course, it happens in other cases and not just cats, but don't blame grouse moors - its simply not correct. Not even open to debate.

As for predation on songbirds, etc - of course, cat lovers will indulge in confirmation bias and quote their own experiences. So you must turn to properly conducted studies to find out the reality. There are lots, and not one of them considers domestic cat predation to be insignificant. Here is one of many

http://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0049369

I personally dislike cats, can't see the point of them, but that opinion is no more valid than that of someone who is fanatical about them. Neither of us is right or wrong, so we must turn to the non partisan properly conducted research. That is clear - cats are an unmitigated nuisance as far as wildlife depredation goes. Make of it what you will.

Australia and New Zealand have millions of non native animals gone wild which cause a lot of economic and environmental damage inc harm to native species. Cats whether feral or domestic also damage native fauna but nowhere near as much as weasels. Both countries are waging war on cats.

Cats have always lived wild in the UK without wiping out other species. Now the future of the wild cat is in the balance 'cos of the power of the grouse estates.

In the UK as a whole the domestic cat predation of birds is not a significant factor in their numbers. Far more important are loss of habitat and pollution, other wild animals esp grey squirrel and road kill. Owls are threatened with extinction by road traffic.

There is no reason at all to launch any vendetta on cats.

As to suburban gardeners their passion for imported plants has led to such disasters as wild rhodedendrons, japanese knotweed and elm die back. The passion for tidy fences and decking is species threatening for the hedgehog, in aggregate increased flooding and crowds out native wild flowers. And they complain about cats. Dearie me.

Time for the cat curfew!

I believe some countries already have one, and it was suggested that a curfew rather than a cull would be better in UK.

As I am not a cat lover the latter would suit me just fine but mt cat loving friends would be very unhappy ;-)

Unless they are really housecats then I personally think to keep an outdoor cat indoors all the time is cruel to them

My sister in Canada has had several cats .all have had to be housecats because the bobcats are a danger to them
They did lose one pet who decided to venture out and was killed by a bobcat .

My cat who we rehomed two years ago stays indoors nearly all day but then wants out.. he does go roaming and had bought back birds .mice etc

If they go hunting surely that's as nature designed them

Sadly my cats despite being 12 years old still love to hunt. Gizmo is very adept at hunting and frequently brings in mice still alive. He does however also like bringing in blue tits and wrens again both alive. He did however on Tuesday catch a magpie which I made him release. The magpie flew off rapidly.

Rocky on the other hand prefers spiders and flys and will quite happily eat whatever insect or arachnid he catches.

My cat has access to a park which he only uses at night. He never goes for birds but bringz in live slow eorms and frogs which I release.

Although some species eg London sparrow are under pressure the main reason is habitat loss. Domestic cats are not v good hunters and do far as hunting intrests them the victims are the old or young. There are many v efficient predators MB of birds of which grey squirrels and birds of prey easily top the list. Feral cats are not much interested in small birds too much effort for small return.

There are still large numbers of birds. Life spans fir most around 5 years. Thus inevitably lots of dead birds many of which are prrdated when old and slowing up.

Taking simple low cost steps to maintain habitat and cleaner air will do far more for the dawn chorus than wild accusations directed at cats.

:-\

My cats love water - they get wet when an un-neutered Tom arrives in the neighbourhood and tries to take over the garden - it ends in a fight, I throw water.
They go out in the rain, come in, and love being dried off.

My cats are trained to do their business on a large barked area of my garden, I also regularly dig over an area under shrubs.
Next doors cats, however, have nowhere in their own garden to go - all decking and cobbles (their dogs use this cobbled area as a toilet).
I object strongly to them cr*pping on my grass :-D
I wouldn't mind if they bothered digging a hole - but they don't, and leaving it uncovered is a sign of 'taking over' the area.

However, I caught one of my cats fighting with next door's 'dominant' cat. I had no water, but went up, growled loudly, shouted, and clapped my hands. Next door's cat ran off.
If I saw it in the garden after this, I'd open the door and growl.
Now all I need to do is rattle the door handle - and it's off!

As for wildlife. The cat that was put down last year absolutely decimated the local rat population. I know, as I'd find the rats skull, spine, tail and liver nicely laid out on the kitchen floor. Perhaps I should have discouraged him.........

I have sloworms in the garden - have to admit, if the cats caught one when they were kittens, I showed dislike - usually growling and taking it off them - all sloworms survived, and the cats no longer bother with them.
I haven't had one brought in, neither have I found a dead/injured one in the garden.
However, next door decimated them, by putting a tarp down for a year, before lifting it and 'getting rid' of the sloworms under it :-| - and he claims he was once a landscape gardener.

My cats tend to bring in their 'finds' - Betty (who is incredibly small) has brought in a couple of dragonflies, and a frog - all alive, and all alive after being released.
George has brought in two pigeons in his 10 years - and I'm not sure he even killed them He just liked plucking them on the stairs :-|
Oh, and a live mouse that he dropped in the living room!!
Apart from the pigeons, I think in all their 10 years, they've brought in two other birds. Having seen them trying to catch a bird, I'd say the birds were probably weak or ill - my cats are notoriously ungainly :-(
Oh - and they've never touched a hedgehog - well not more than once :-D

Ecologically, the human is as 'bad' as a cat. Gardens that are too tidy can mean sloworms can no longer safely live there.
'Perfect' fences mean there is no way for hedgehogs to move from area to area.
My garden has shrubs that sloworms can hide under. There are also sloworm 'covers' around the place. I ensure there is a small hole in every fence, to allow the hedgehogs access (yes, they may eat small sloworms, but that's nature).
I also never use slug pellets - they would kill both hedgehogs and sloworms

Apart from the area I dig for the cats, I rarely dig my garden over now. I once impaled a hibernating frog on a fork tine. I realised his life was worth more than a perfectly dug over garden.