General Chat

Thank you Rose. :) Cx

I understand that in some cases of people not only with autism but with other mental heath issues that for the safe being of them selves and others that they may have to be placed in care. But as Rambling Rose states there are procedures in place which must to be followed before an order is sanctioned by law. In this case the LA did not act as the law states which is why I support this case.

"It IS difficult (as opposed to dangerous) to generalise on the subject of ASDs because of the wide range of the spectrum but, identifying indeed empathising, with someone in a similar situation is not difficult. There are often threads on this site about people who 'know' what others are going through because of personal experience... bereavement, illness etc., why should identifying with another parent of an autistic child be any different?"

There is absolutely nothing wrong with identifying with / empathising with someone in a similar situation... nothing at all...

'knowing' and sympathising with what someone else is going through is NOT the same though as taking measures ( in this case petitioning) to influence a case on which one does not have all the facts, only what has been reported?

I'm sorry Cynthia, maybe the word 'simply' was the wrong one. The OP was asking for people to sign a petition if they felt able to do so?

My point, if not expressed terribly well, was that unless one had knowledge of all the aspects of this specific case ( and no one outside the family and social services/health workers knows all the details) , signing the petition based on incomplete knowledge might be based on natural and perfectly reasonable empathy with the family and Stephen himself and not on the merits of case itself.

I am sure those with experience of autism like yourself would make a decision to sign or not based on your knowledge and experience.

I am equally sure that emotive language such as 'incarcerated' used in the news article would produce in ALL who read it a knee jerk "that's terrible" reaction, which may prompt them to sign without due consideration, of all aspects of the case.

No one who has even the slightest experience of autism, as I do, wants anything but the best possible support for those who are on the autistic spectrum and their families.

Empathy is good I read this thread and yes we dont know all the facts but we know what ar hearts say and its compassion. I have two children on the spectrum and as a parent I wouldn't like to think this may happen to mine. They are finding their niche in this sometimes unsympathetic world. My heart goes out to parents, siblings, children etc on the spectrum as I know 1st hand how hard it can be sometimes I can do nothing but I can empathise, I can try my hardest to understand their world and the ways of it compared to the one they are forced to live in. For someone to say you may have someone with autism but you dont know them is very wrong we know ar children and we know ar parents and we know ar siblings. The world needs to change so they can have the right to live their lives in the same way every other human as the right and that right is theirs and should never be taken from them no matter whatever circumstances may arise.

Rose, there is no 'simply' about it when one has been dealing with this condition for over 40 years and I don't actually appreciate the use of the word 'simply' in this context.


I am on a steering group in our area which is involves many local authority and NHS departments. We are looking at ways of getting the Autism Strategy in place throughout the borough and what can be done to offer more support.


More and more, these professionals are turning to we parents on the group for advice on what is needed. They all 'know' about autism in its various forms but admit that 'living' with it is outside of their experience. They are listening to what we have to offer and are set on doing what they can.


My very supportive GP who also holds some sort of 'top job' in the local PCT, recently told me that things are beginning to happen with autism in the area and most of it was due to my persistence. He helps me any way he can because he sees the need and sees what families go through.


It IS difficult (as opposed to dangerous) to generalise on the subject of ASDs because of the wide range of the spectrum but, identifying indeed empathising, with someone in a similar situation is not difficult. There are often threads on this site about people who 'know' what others are going through because of personal experience... bereavement, illness etc., why should identifying with another parent of an autistic child be any different?

Cx

I do see things from both sides on this, yesterday I was in some training in which the subject of Deprivation of liberty orders was discussed, I don't think anyone in health care or social services takes it lightly, procedures are in place which have to be followed before an order is sanctioned, and do remember that it is there to protect ALL sides, a young man who 'attacks' someone whatever the reason is at risk himself of action taken in self defence by others.

I also have to say that as a spectacles wearer at all times, if someone came up to me and removed them I would be scared, I can't see well without them so aside from the 'assault' itself it would leave me very vulnerable.

The 'assault' itself may be minor, but anyone, especially if elderly, who has been subject to it may have permanent problems, fear of venturing out for example.

There are two side to this, and so many degrees of autism that it is dangerous I think to generalise...or to identify with someone simply because you know about autism from personal experience.

Well, I guess we will each have to see things from our own persepective then Janey. Thank you for your input. Cx.

May I add that Steven was in the care home at the time because his father was ill and had nothing to do with Stevens behaviour at the time. So would steven have been allowed home if he had not been left unsupervised ? ?

I'll be sighing too soon.

Yes, in a general way, one minimizes the risks of things happening by creating conditions in which they are less likely to happen. Overall, there are less likely to be incidents in which harm is caused to others by individuals with autism if appropriate services are available to those individuals and their families. Or so the theory goes.

In any event, though, that is *not* the issue in this particular instance. This particular instance is an individual case involving a particular individual who has caused harm to others in the past. (I think it's disingenuous to keep talking about "removing" a vicar's spectacles and ignoring the *kicking* of a stranger's toddler in a public place, btw.)

Improving services to a group as a whole is *not* the only way to reduce the risk of a *particular individual* causing harm to other individuals. And that is the issue here -- what, if anything, should be done to reduce that particular *known* risk.

This doesn't have anything to do with what anyone may have experienced firsthand, really -- because, again, I am speaking from the perspective of those who are at risk of harm, not the perspective of the family members of the individuals who might cause the harm.

Sigh........Quote....I'm talking about the need to minimize the risk of such incidents happening. unquote.

So am I Janey...........so am I. sigh....

......and, until something is done about the appropriate care for those with this condition, the risk remains.

I am certainly not disgregarding the interests of the public as the best approach.............surely you know me better than that??


To be honest, Janey, unless this is something one has experienced firsthand, it's very hard for anyone to form a judgement.


By the way...dealing with autism makes one sigh a lot.......lol



Amy, if I look daft and irresponsible to you - sobeit.

But by signing you are not just helping Steven, hopefully it will make sure that those 'powers that be' think and follow the law before removing someone from their home.

Also as in time regarding the vicars glasses being removed keep being mentioned, at the time this took place Steven was in care he was left unsupervised in the care home , left the house and met a vicar whose glasses he removed. As a consequence of this, the local authority served Steven with a Deprivation of Liberty order. So who is to blame????? The same people who are suppose to protect 'victims'

Amy as one of those 'idiots' i signed not just for steven but to get this case highlighted so i does not happen to another family which could be mine !

Really , well nor does it look nice a bunch of idiots rushing to sign a petition about a person they know nothing about , having an autistic child does NOT mean you know this person or what is best for them .

I'm sure like me, Amy many of the people "rushing" to sign this have done so because we have personal experience of ASD.

I think you need to have a read through what you have written again & think about how it makes you look. Not nice AT ALL.

Cynthia thank you for your kind words, i am just a very lucky lady with 2 beautiful children that's how i see myself.

From the view of a parent of a child who has attacked ( not sure if this is the correct word to use) this is how I dealt with it. My DD attacked a girl 6/7 years ago, totally unexpected and out of the blue, whilst in a queue in Florida, my first thing was to make sure my DD was away from anyone or any thing should could harm ( I ended up on the floor nearly sitting on her) repeating and signing calm down, once calm I shouted to the mother of the girl please can you wait i will return in one moment. I took my daughter to her father and ran back. Yes I was embarrassed, angry and upset but i remained calm, asked the girl if she was okay, apologized I do not know how many times and explain to the lady my daughters disability. the lady was very nice and she said thank you to me for explaining and that she had heard of Autism but not taken much notice of it. Once back at the hotel I went through what had happened leading up to the incident and came to the idea that may be my DD thought she was going to miss the parade as seconds before there was a muffled announcement, my DH recalled it also but he heard it clearly that it would be starting in 5 mins. May my DD thought she was missing it hence the melt down.

There was also an indecent at school but more of a fight than an attack but i still wrote a note to the childs parents with my apologies and stated that i hope her son was ok, different thing I know as the lad involved also has disabilities and it happened in school. But I think it is always best to face what has happened instead of just oh well.

My DD has been bitten in school by a child the school rang and told me what happened but i never received a word from the childs parents may be I was hoping for it a little to much.

No matter what a childs disability I would like to think there is always a way to make them understand that some things are wrong but sometimes they just can not take in the information.

i will end there as I know I am rabbiting on lol

As soon as I got in the bathroom I thought to myself....."Janey is now going to come back at me because I didn't really answer her question about the fate of those who are attacked". Not even for you JC my dear, was I going to gallop down the stairs wearing only a towel (or worse) to add to this thread.

But now that I am back, I will add.....

Of course there is concern for those who have been subjected to abuse from those on the spectrum and those people should be cared for and treated as other victims would be. Agreed, I wouldn't want my specs yanked off my face or my hair pulled by a large and obviously disturbed young man but I hope I would have the grace to realise that he had severe problems. I would also want to know what help he and his carers were receiving.


My main point, of course, is that if the families/carers had more support and training in the first place, a lot of these issues could be avoided.


Covlass.....you have my admiration for your strength, determination and love. Although you must get so worn down and weary, you must try to continue to fight the cause. If you haven't already done so, use the Autism Act and Strategy as your essential weapons - contact your local MP - join the National Autistic Society - email your local newspaper. I truly hope that you get the support you so obviously need. Cx




Now I will go and dust my bedrooms....no rest for the wicked :))

As soon as I got in the bathroom I thought to myself....."Janey is now going to come back at me because I didn't really answer her question about the fate of those who are attacked". Not even for you JC my dear, was I going to gallop down the stairs wearing only a towel (or worse) to add to this thread.

But now that I am back, I will add.....

Of course there is concern for those who have been subjected to abuse from those on the spectrum and those people should be cared for and treated as other victims would be. Agreed, I wouldn't want my specs yanked off my face or my hair pulled by a large and obviously disturbed young man but I hope I would have the grace to realise that he had severe problems. I would also want to know what help he and his carers were receiving.


My main point, of course, is that if the families/carers had more support and training in the first place, a lot of these issues could be avoided.


Covlass.....you have my admiration for your strength, determination and love. Although you must get so worn down and weary, you must try to continue to fight the cause. If you haven't already done so, use the Autism Act and Strategy as your essential weapons - contact your local MP - join the National Autistic Society - email your local newspaper. I truly hope that you get the support you so obviously need. Cx




Now I will go and dust my bedrooms....no rest for the wicked :))

Very well put Cynthia for 7.30am better than I could have done !!

My point of view from a mother of a child very much like Steven, my DD is 14, the same height as me but twice the size. She has Autism, server learning difficulties, challenging behavior, and sensory needs.

The trouble with this country is the level of support is poor and in most cases parents do not get any where near the level of support they need until it is too late.

We knew from birth that my DD would have difficulties and we was promised the world of support none of which happened. The LEA insisted she went to main stream school she lasted less than a week !! A meeting was called and it turned out that my DD had been 'lost in the system. I was close to a break down before I got any support and before someone would listen to me, i then had to fight to get my DD asset for Autism.

Many things have happened over the years but more relevant to this thread fast forward. Nearly 2 years ago I had to fight to get reassessed for her sensory needs as she was becoming more agitated and having more 'melt downs' my concerns were that she was becoming more violent due to her sensory needs and I was becoming more concerned about taking her out on my own during school holidays. She was a prisoner in her own home, the council run activities during the holidays for disabled children but due to the amount of young children attending and the number of staff these are not suitable for my DD. It was agreed that various things could be used to help reduce her sensory needs and a support worker would be given to us to enable her to attend some of these activities. great that means mt DD would get out of the house and be able to join in so activities and I would get a couple of hours grace during the holidays and spend time with my other daughter.

i am still waiting, phone call after phone call and guess what her application was lost again, that was 6 months ago !

All of my DD life i have had to fight every step of the way so god knows what it will be like when she is 19 !!

Yes i am a strong woman and have a fantastic husband who supports me and is very hands on ! Buy what if i wasn't

Take the case of the lady who made her son drink bleach and then attempted take her own life. Very sadly the young boy died a tragic painful death. Social services were trying to take her son away from her. Where was her support before she found she could not cope..............

Thank you for your prayers Bridget, they are needed - believe me!


Morning Janey! Okay, I will try and be as logical as I can for 7.30am....lol

I spend a lot of my time, along with many other people, campaigning for the 'rights' of folk such as Steven but, I do realise, that with those 'rights' comes the word 'responsibility'.

The campaigning is aimed at making those in authority ie Government, Social Services etc., aware of the fact that people with autism and their families need advice and support sooner rather than later. If they get the appropriate help and guidance in place as soon as the condition is recognised, then the likelihood of 'incidents' will be lessened.


Unfortunately, very little has been done for this condition in this country in the past mostly because of lack of awareness by professionals. However, now that the Autism Bill has been passed through parliament and the Adult Autism Strategy is in place, councils have to be seen to be setting up plans to support people with autism.


Something to be looked at, is the possibility of the proportion of young offenders who may be affected but who have not, as yet, been diagnosed. There is the likelihood of many youngsters getting themselves into trouble because they are on the autistic spectrum or have an ASD or some kind. Quite possibly, their condition has not been officially diagnosed and their actions put down to vague 'behavioural problems'. It may be their families have given up on them because they did not have the skills to deal with those problems.


Now that the awareness level is being raised, authorities and experts are now picking up on young children who are showing autistic tendencies - which is good. Sadly, when those children reach the age of 19 - the transition period - there is little support available. It's rather like they and their families are being dropped into a black hole.


I am constantly saying to those I meet in my endeavours, that children with autism grow up to be adults with autism and something must be put in place to give them continuing support. There is also thought to be a high number of adults who are on the spectrum but who have never been diagnosed because of lack of recognition of the condition.

It is not unknown for some in their 40's and 50's to be diagnosed but there are still many of that age group out there who are struggling to make sense of life and are thought of as being 'odd' or eccentric.

To quote you:
Is nothing done about those poeple? I think that anyone else who kicked a stranger's toddler in an airport would find themselves in a fair bit of hot water, and perhaps prison. No one suggests that that is an appropriate way of dealing with Steven's actions; I just don't understand why there seems to be so little concern about them.

I would say that, of course there is concern for them and I can imagine the shame and despair that some families feel when their autistic family member behaves like this but, if these families had been given (to quote you again) 'appropriate ways of dealing with ******'s actions', then many such incidents could be avoided.


This is why I campaign so hard.


Off for my shower....see you later ~~~~~~~Cx

surely what we all want is a thorough reviw of the situation for Steven, his family and many many more like him. Locking people away is not normally the best for anyone BUT neither is living at home with parents/siblings etc being afraid.
Compassion, knowledge, research etc is what is required. I can recall the time when anyone with dementia in any of its' forms was something to be ashamed of and people were locked away.
Of course this would all cost a huge sum of money and I can hear people saying where will it come from....I suppose it depends on how much we want it.
Someone well known or a parent who is strong and determined to lead is what is required and meanwhile let uis all remember "There but for the grace of god, go I".
For those of you who care for people with Aspergers and other such conditions All I can say is I pray for you all
.
Bridget