General Chat

careful what you say about Ollie Cromwell Janey - or Uncle Ollie as he is known in our family - apparently he's in my family tree!!! Not sure how I feel about that mind

As for Christmas, these days I donlt care for it at all, always go to church on Christmas Eve but as for the rest, think I've turned into a grumpy old woman - donlt bother with decoations any more - not the same since my lovely OH died - miss cooking Christmas dinner with all the trimmings

One wonders what Louise makes of all this?

I bet she's sorry she asked now!

:)

Janey stated:

QUOTE
The only issue is whether there should be OFFICIAL PUBLIC celebrations of religious holidays.

And I'd say that any Christian - or anyone else - who says there should be is "celebrating" something besides their religious holiday. They are celebrating their dominance over religious minorities in their society, and rubbing the minorities' faces in it.

END QUOTE

I think you have pushed that point outside the parameters of the perceived and traditional norm in the UK.

Why do you believe that tradition is misguided? Why does tradition equate to Christians (as one group) dominating other religions?

As one who worked with JWs and I often wore a cross (as a fashion piece of jewellery not with significant religious connotations) I was told that it could cause offence. Nobody asked me to actually remove it and I certainly wouldn't have done so. I had to listen to Darwin being ridiculed all too often but chose to ignore it.

The UK has changed radically and it's a country I have problems identifying with sometimes. Maybe I am just getting too old and intolerant but I do get sick to the back teeth with 'over the top' adjustments being made which do a disservice to both Protestants and Roman Catholics.

One example from personal experience. Asian woman dies at 3 a.m. she is left on the ward until 6 p.m. the following evening until her family came to wash the body. The distress this caused to other patients, including my sister, was truly awful as many were terminally ill themselves.

No, I realise this does not directly relate to the OP's thread but it is an example of why some of us feel our traditional way of living is being eroded. Celebrations of 'religious' holidays included.

Sue

Rox, I wondered who would realise that :-) Years ago I always used to rib my mum about Christmas being a pagan festival that the church 'adopted', it really used to wind her up lol.
Janey, 'god' should begin with a capital G, no matter what faith you are.

I have been in contact with Louise by PM, since she wished to quote something I said. I assume that if she wishes to quote something someone else says, she will do the same. I hope she saved carefully.

Ann o' GG - you remember that my mythical ancestor was responsible for restoring that Charles fellow to the throne, so you be careful about your Cromwells too. ;)


SueM:
"I think you have pushed that point outside the parameters of the perceived and traditional norm in the UK.
Why do you believe that tradition is misguided? Why does tradition equate to Christians (as one group) dominating other religions?"

I'm sorry, but I don't think it's possible not to understand this.

In a modern liberal democracy, everyone, of every race, ethnicity, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, ability status, etc. etc., is treated *equally*. Equality. It is a very simple concept.

Celebrating the religious events of one religion - of any religion - in public institutions like schools is simply contrary to the principle of equality.

It's just me being Canadian, isn't it? Equality and diversity are the two fundamental values of Canadian society (along with all the earlier liberal values like freedom of speech and that jazz).

For a public school to treat children differently based on their ethnicity or religion or sex or any other personal characteristic is simply wrong, morally wrong, and is not acceptable in a society that believes in, and values, the equality of all human beings.

A nativity play is a religious event. It is not the equivalent of Hansel and Gretel, or The Little Prince. And a lot of Christians would squawk to high heaven if the schools treated it as if it were -- if they told the children they were taking part in a fairy tale play or an historical re-enactment.

Elevating one group's myths and stories above another's is a denial of equal treatment. And to treat children unequally based on their ethnicity or their family's religious beliefs is just reprehensible. It really, really, really is that simple.

"One example from personal experience. Asian woman dies at 3 a.m. she is left on the ward until 6 p.m. the following evening until her family came to wash the body. The distress this caused to other patients, including my sister, was truly awful as many were terminally ill themselves."

Example of what? Incompetent hospital administration? I'd sure say so. I would hope that the hospital administration would have a place set aside for this purpose. I imagine it caused distress to the family in question to have their mother/wife left there, and to have to perform their ritual in the ward, too. Are you wanting to blame the family for their desire to deal with death as their customs and religion direct?

"The UK has changed radically and it's a country I have problems identifying with sometimes. Maybe I am just getting too old and intolerant but I do get sick to the back teeth with 'over the top' adjustments being made which do a disservice to both Protestants and Roman Catholics."

Maybe you are, one of those. Because I'm no spring chicken, and I see no disservice being done to anyone. I see Christians pitching fits about not getting their own way.

Remember that I was reared Christian, and have been an atheist since a young age. I do not want the public schools I fund putting on religous events, for my own reasons as well as my consideration for others. In Canada, about 1 in 5 of us have no religion. We should not be funding public religiosity or having our children subjected to it.

Did you know that in the 2001 census, more than 1 in 7 residents of the UK said they had no religion? Even more did not answer the question. And you can bet those numbers have gone up. Christians were just over 7 in 10 of the population. Why should people who have no religion pay taxes for schools that Christians make the decisions about? Because Christians are the majority? That isn't how the 21st century works.

"Why do you believe that tradition is misguided? Why does tradition equate to Christians (as one group) dominating other religions?"

Why do you say I said something I NEVER SAID? Why can't anyone here speak directly and straightfordly to what IS said?

I don't believe "tradition is misguided". I believe that the celebrating of *any* religious events or beliefs by public institutions is wrong. Today. It was wrong in the 19th century, when England's Jews and Hindus and so on were already excluded from mainstream society, but there you are, notions like equality really hadn't been thought yet.

We know better. We know what is wrong, and what is right, in our day and our world. All the whining Christians in the world know better. They know that their demands are contrary to the values of modern liberal democracies. Their problem is that they don't want to live in a modern liberal democracy. And that's too bad for them.

Christina, you are behaving like a nasty childish little snipe.

If you have nothing to say, why don't you try not saying it?

RomanyStar, please do not lecture me on spelling. You spell the nouns to designate non-existent mythical beings the way you like, and I'll spell them the way I like.

I suppose you know what god my niece talks about with her friends in the schoolyard. Not.

celebrating Xmas, Santa Clause, Red Nosed reindeers, Elves at the North pole, etc.etc. Then which Xmas the 25th or the 5th January or if we are talking about the birth of Christ, it probably occoured nearer Easter. The feast we celebrate as Xmas is in fact a pagan celebration taken over by the Church.
As for peace love and family, work in any casualty dept and you'll see the violence,
There are a number of very devout Christians who do not celebrate Xmas. They have been in this country since the reformation.
Cromwell's New Modell Army went round the streets of London and dragged anyone celebrating Christmas out into street for a flogging, because they saw celebrating Christmas as an Unchristly and Ungodly act
Think we can get on with doing our own thing, I for one prefer to work, but I would say I'm a Christian

Janey, I am using the hospital fiasco as an example of the UK not being equal and liberal. You weren't there, you are not privy to the explanation given by the ward sister. It was the wrong action (or inaction) to take. I really do not care that the tradition dictates that Asian bodies should be tended to by immediate family. This could have been done at the undertakers (as is the norm). The family insisted it was carried out where death took place. Tradition dictates that Christians/Pagans/Heathens should be able to celebrate religious holidays in their own way. This does not involve inconsiderate distress to others and you cannot possibly say that it does.

I would also object to funeral pyres being built in Stepney. Sharia law courts desire to take precedence over UK law. Jewish wives not being able to get a divorce because the husband will not issue a get.

There is NO equality in the UK and never will be. It is a fractured society because there are too many diverse groups who are intolerant of British traditions. Yes I may well come across as racist, I am not, although I probably do have the tendency to be. You have to be part of the system to appreciate bias towards ethnic minorities, this is what riles people.

We all remember Mr. Patel in the corner shop. He and his family worked like Trojans, forged a successful business and friendships with locals. It is not the same nowadays, those times have passed and will be mourned.

Yes, I am grumpy, yes I feel aggrieved when I learn that traditional British life is being eroded. Yes I am scared when I drive through parts of London which are ruled by gangs, of all nationalities, 3rd generation Pakistanis who say they are Pakistani and not British and they support terrorists.

You can brand me, stupid, short sighted, racist, insular or anything else you wish but I do represent quite a few citizens who dare not speak their minds.

Sue

Lecture? I do not lecture. I point out what I think is offensive, ie god with no capital G. You waste no time in being so, so angry with everyone else, yet dont like anyone else speaking their thoughts. Enough said.

THIS THREAD IS LIKE XMAS MIRED IN MYTH AND MISUNDERSTANDING.everyone seems to think that the way they celebrated Xmas is the way the majority do so. Wrong everyone does it their own way, even a large minority of Christians dont or celebrate it in January
Xmas has nothing to do with being a Christian

Wow!


think I will be orft to me chill thread...... this is a thread to read when I want to think deeply about stuff that will rock all boats.....back when I am in the mood for all that stuff :-)))))

Oh whoops!....too late....I read the last post


Ok Terry.....not sure exactly where you are coming from but!.......

*Xmas has nothing to do with being a Christian*....

not saying I agree or disagree with that statement but!.......What does it have to do with then?!....In the nicest possible way of course......( and take into account that I can argue the left leg off a donkey if so disposed to:-)))

SueM:
"Tradition dictates that Christians/Pagans/Heathens should be able to celebrate religious holidays in their own way. This does not involve inconsiderate distress to others and you cannot possibly say that it does."

Why do you pretend I say things I don't say? Really, why? I have said NOTHING about anyone celebrating holidays "in their own way".

There is NOTHING about Christianity that makes it "Christian" to put on religious events in public institutions like schools. That is not Christians doing anything "in their own way" *as Christians*. That is Christians *as individuals* and *as a group* choosing to do something because they want to, and because they can. When Jesus said "This do, in in remembrance of me", he was not talking about children dressing up like sheep.

Anybody remember the upper room?

Matthew 6:5 - 7
5. And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

Public displays of religiosity are not Christian.

If Christians want to treat their nativity story the same way they treat Hansel and Gretel, go for it. It's a fairy tale for the children to act out.


"I would also object to funeral pyres being built in Stepney."

And if there are public policy reasons, that are valid in a modern liberal democracy, to prohibit it, then that's fine. We prohibit human sacrifice, no matter what anyone's religion says.

"Sharia law courts desire to take precedence over UK law."

I don't know your situation, but when this arose in Ontario, no one seemed to know that Jews and Catholics had been running their own "courts" for a long time, and those decisions were treated just as Shari'a tribunal decisions would be: as the decisions of arbitration boards by which the parties had agreed to be bound, and which would then be enforceable in the courts. But not if they violated existing laws and rights. No power to make binding family law decisions, for instance. I have no problem with people wanting to settle their interpersonal disputes according to their own rules. You know that Islam forbids the charging of interest on debts? One reason Muslims wanted private commercial disputes settled by their own rules.

If anybody thinks that the desire for Shari'a tribunals was meant to allow women to be stoned and men to say "I divorce thee" and get the kids and be absolved of support obligations, well, their prejudice would be showing.

"Jewish wives not being able to get a divorce because the husband will not issue a get."

That is false. Jewish women may choose not to divorce without a get, but it's choice. It's illegal in Canada for a husband to use a get to bargain in a divorce, for public policy reasons.


"There is NO equality in the UK and never will be. It is a fractured society because there are too many diverse groups who are intolerant of British traditions."

If I knew what that meant, I could respond. I've pointed out that the Jewish community has been present in Britain for millennia. Are their traditions "British traditions"?

Obviously, there are problems everywhere in the world with militant fundamentalists whose interest is *not* equality. I hold no brief for militant Muslims or Hindus any more than for militant Christians.

But I don't equate people who might want their kids treated equally in schools with those people. I don't know why anyone would.


As far as the hospital tale and so on, I'm sorry, but if the response to my opinion is *you weren't there and you don't know* then I can't see much point in talking about it.

I could tell you about the misery of three months under the thumb of a vicious RC nun, and blame all my problems on the RC church, and when challenged say *you weren't there and you don't know*. The fact is that I would not offer that experience as proof of some broad principle or of the rancid influence of Roman Catholics on my society, and if I did and were challenged, I would expect to say something more than *you weren't there and you don't know*.


"Yes, I am grumpy, yes I feel aggrieved when I learn that traditional British life is being eroded."

And while I am fond of the traditions that come to me from my entirely English family, I'm glad I have new traditions as well, and that the traditional Canadian way of life is tolerance and celebration of diversity.


"Yes I am scared when I drive through parts of London which are ruled by gangs, of all nationalities, 3rd generation Pakistanis who say they are Pakistani and not British and they support terrorists."

And I just wonder: if there weren't quite as many people calling them "them" and telling them that "we" are the only real British, well hmm, who knows.

If Christmas had anything to do with being Christian then why do many of the more fundementalist christian groups not celebrate it, or why durring the time of Cromwell was it seen as an Ungodly celebration by the Puritans?
Early Christians didn't celebrate Christmas it was adopted in to coincide with the pagan celebration of Light

Dear All

Hello

After reading things about beliefs etc, its is not surprising that more people have become non-believers.

I do try and celebrate the earlier celtic and pagan days of Lammas,
Beltane and others.

Each festival comes arounf every six weeks or so. It is a good opportunity to reflect on what has been done and to plan ahead.

I like the peace of a small church service.
With no sermons, thank you.

I don't have to wave a banner, knock on peoples doors or be in a place of worship to sometimes experience those delicious moments of peace and tranquility when I look at the wonder of nature.

Whatever your beliefs or religion, have a peaceful night and weekend.

Very best wishes
xx

Wow! again

Just read a few more posts......an interesting subject and one I am sure to want to make a comment about......when I have finished chilling that is...hopefully the thread will not have whooshed by the time I get back to it....forgive my frivolity....I do care.....I do have the passion to answer.......but not just now....am as I say...chilling :-)))))

Sorry...was me who deleted ..GR playing up and added twice

DET - I've said every time the subject has arisen here at GR that I am very, very strongly in favour of teaching children *about* religions. All religions.

This can indeed include participatory activities, although I think there's a fine line there.

I'm well aware that England has a state religion. So does Scotland. Two different churches, and the monarch is head of them both. Hmm.

Obviously, my question is: why? Why would a nation in this century want to have a state religion? How can this possibly be justified? Forget about the newcomers, the Muslims and Hindus. Forget about the Jews who have been around forever. Consider the Unitarians and Methodists and all the rest who are perfectly good Christians, just not CofE. Not to mention all the indigenous atheists.

How is England any different from Iran, in this regard? How could any good English person criticise any other nation for its state religion, and the imposition of that religion's policies on its society?

No real Christian would have anything to do with the idea of a state religion.


Is this site being a hopeless pig tonight, or does it just not like me?

Janey

*I'm well aware that England has a state religion*

I think you are out of date with that one.....England 'did' have a state religion which was Church of England....but this was in the days when people cared......These days...no-one cares....well....the state doesn't that is for sure and I am afraid that the younger generation knows little about religion except to say they do not believe ( most anyway )

I agree that one should be taught all religions...at least when one argues about it one will know what one is talking about :-)))

Of course I know Islam forbids interest on debts FGS, I also know an Orthodox Jewish woman will NOT be able to remarry without her get.

A funeral pyre in Stepney is not a human sacrifice and I didn't say it was.

You are stating that Christians should not celebrate Christmas in their own way, refer to my previous quote from you where you have contradicted yourself. It's a tradition FGS not an imposition on other faiths. There are about 10 Sharia law courts currently in the UK. There are countless Rabbinical hearings but these mainly question Jewish law and how to interpret it in Orthodox communities. Faith schools exist because they were funded by the church. When the state system afforded education to all why on earth should the faith be detached? Don't forget I am speaking as an agnostic and have NO evangelical drum to beat here. As for the hospital tale, you felt qualified to comment before didn't you? Where exactly have I referred to 'them'.

You read exactly what you wish to in order to further your argument.

When were you last in the UK? When were you last in a school, hospital, within the benefit system?

I am all for diversity but integration, to a degree, MUST be encouraged to promote more tolerance on both 'sides'