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No, I know what you mean Siobhan! I started off researching my maternal grandfather's family because there was something of a mystery there and I found out loads, with lots of juicy bits, although it took a lot of detective work!, then typed it all up and sent it around my rellies who were all very interested in it. I've also done lots on my grandmother's side, but that all seems to be 'so-and-so married so-and-so, lived at..., had ten children, so-and-so born ..., so-and-so born ...' etc. (all with the same names and occupations as each other) and it seems too boring to give the same treatment. What I've done instead is put it all up on Tribal Pages for them so they can look at it that way. One difference among many between the two sides is that I have got loads of wills from my grandfather's side and none from Granny's (a lot of her rellies were ag. labs or miners). Wills often do open it up and tell you all sorts of things about the family that you don't get from censuses and certificates (particularly as certain of Grandpa's family just lied about everything on the certificates anyway!) If you can find any wills, Siobhan, you may get what you're looking for. I would certainly be intrigued by the Caroline mystery and keep digging! Just as long as you are prepared to find out that she wasn't married to the father(s) of her children! Oh, and something so obvious I overlooked it... sometimes it is very difficult to tell the difference between an M and a W in the 'marital status' column on the census. And I see she is down as M on the 1901. Kate.

Spot on Dancer. We'd all doubtless like to know more of what went on during the 3650 odd days between the census 'snapshots', but given the resources and data available thats virtually impossible. Maybe if a family kept a bible up to date with births, marriages and deaths, and they corresponded and that correspondance had been saved ..... but for most of us it will remain a mystery. Cant see the point in asking for information on this site if you 'want to get an idea of the history of my ancestors. Not just a lot of statisical information and dates. That means nothing'

Sweetheart, There is a difference between knowing how and where people lived, their occupations etc .... and their lives between the sheets ! I really do understand what you are saying, but the bottom line is, that ONLY Caroline knew who she was bedding, when and why ! and who fathered her children ! regardless of what names she had put on the birth certs! regardless of whether or not she was widowed. Keep us informed ! I'm intrigued ! Dancer x

Thanks everyone for your help. I am going to order Matthews birth cert tomorrow and see what that throws up.

I am definately going to get the certificate regardless. But I don't agree with not worrying what an ancestor was up to. After all isn't that a vital part of family history. To discover the history of your ancestors. I know alot of people just like to add names and statistical dates to their family tree. But I really do not see the point in that. As it tells you nothing about their lives and it is their lives I am interested in.

found a marriage for caroline pegg to john w sawden dec 1866 leicestershire, lincolnshire this would tie in with 1871 census caroline sowden 1839 born ingoldsby lincolnshire lodger living with her children elizabeth, fanny and martha good luck

No marriages under Bernard Sowden between 1851 - 61 either I'm afraid. Laird has a point .... rather than worry what Caroline was doing for 20/ 30 years, find out who your young man's parents actually are ... as Caroline MAY not be his Mum anyway ... although, I must admit, my gut instincts in the past have prooved correct ... but only AFTER receiving the birth cert ! You didn't have to married back then, same as now, to have children !!! we all get lonely at times ... ! Go for it ... get the cert !! ... and keep us informed. Dancer x ps. Seems likely that BOTH his parents are dead before 1881 ... which is why he is with the Crisps in 1881 & 1891.

My husbands 3xg grandmother had 6 children and never married lived with her mum on 2 of the census's when there was 2 children were put down as her mums children then they must have forgot and they were put down as grandchildren. is there any older daughters who perhaps had children but put them down as all her own in stead of grandchildren? what about getting a couple of certs to see what they say? Jeanette

Hi Siobhan The only Bernard Sowden death on Family Relatives is in Hull but the 2nd qtr of 1920 and that's for a child aged 0. So Bernard either died before 1866 He upped and left Caroline and she said she was widowed rather than admit to that Bernard was his middle name and he's listed under something else Or the children were illegitimate and the father's name on the marriage cert was a false one Any of those (not so helpful!) suggestions make any sense! Lou

Laird, Because I like to get an idea of the history of my ancestors. Not just a lot of statisical information and dates. That means nothing.

Siabhan Cannot see any reference for a marriage between Jan 1861 and Dec 1871 on 1837. Victor

Why worry about whatever she was doing ? Its over a 100 years ago - she obviously lived a full and active life ...........

Bernards occupation on Matthews marriage certificate is a Farmer. I have found the reference to Matthews birth certificate on Yorkshire BMD, so have that to order. But I don't think the birth certificate is going to help explain what Caroline is up to. so annoying

Even if he was in prison, he would show on a census. If he was a seaman (Hull ?) he would show on a vessel in port, but not one on the high seas. Sounds like a birth record is the way to go. Shouldnt be too hard given his dob & pob are consistent over the census years ....

No Idea who he is with in 1881, could be his grandmother I suppose. As he is only 5, so a bit young to be a visitor. But I think Caroline's maiden name might be Peg. Matthew is with Hannah Crisp again in 1891 Bernard his father just cannot be found anywhere. I wonder if he could of been in prison. But that still wouldn't explain how Caroline the widow keeps having children. I am going to have to order his birth cert if I can find it, to confirm that Caroline is his mother. But I don't think it will explain what she is up to.

So who is this that young Matt is visiting in 1881 ? Granny ? Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Residence --------------------------------------------------------- Hannah Crisp abt 1850 Welton, Yorkshire, England Daughter Cow Gate, Welton & Melton, Yorkshire, England Sarah Crisp abt 1810 N Cave, Yorkshire, England Head Cow Gate, Welton & Melton, Yorkshire, England +->Matthew W. Sowden abt 1876 Sutton On Hull, Yorkshire, England Visitor Cow Gate, Welton & Melton, Yorkshire, England and he's her Lodger in 1891 in Welton - didnt he ever live at home ? Maybe he disapproved ?

noticed that Matthew is not with her on any census. Son Bernard is with her and her married daur in 1901.... Rumpty-tumpty at each new address, not as if theres a lodger following her around....

yep they all have the same surname. It appears that Caroline married somewhere between 1861 and 1871. In the 1871 census she is widowed. But she continues to have children as in each census she has a new child under 10 years old. It just doesn't make sense and it is definately the same women. It seems to me she was up to something. I cannot find anything anywhere on Matthews father Bernard. But I am convince this is his mother, as everything ties in.

Just thought ... maybe Bernard IS the father to all the children and he's NOT her husband ?... maybe she was actually married to a different Sowden ? Have you located a marriage for Mum ? Dancer x Is Your Matthew W Sowden, the one who's visiting the Crisp's in 1881 ... ?

Do all the following children have the same surname ? or could they have a different Dad? Where have you searched for a Death for Bernard ? Dancer x