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I have been trying to located Bernard Sowden a Farmer in the census but have been unsuccessful. His son Matthew William Sowden married Nellie Littlejohns in 1899 in Sussex. On the marriage certifcate, Bernard is down as deceased. Matthew was born in 1876 in Hull in Yorkshire. I have found what I believe to be his mother and siblings in the 1891, 1881 and 1871 census. The problem is she is down as Widowed in all of these census which would mean she was widowed when Matthew was born. The problem is although she is widowed she has continued to have children, as in each census she has children under 10 years old. So my question is what on earth is going on. The details of his assumed mother are: Caroline Sowden born c1840 in Ingoldsby in Yorkshire. Your advice would be appreciated. As I cannot get my head around this one.

I think you need his BIRTH cert to gain his Parents actual names. Seems the only logical way of doing it. I have spent most of the afternoon sifting through families who have the same names and dob's, same parents etc ... and still haven't convinced myself of the correct family. My lot, however, are VERY distant rellies, so I'll not loose sleep over them... and won't be buying a cert ! Good Luck Dancer x

It's not so much confirming this women is his mother. It is the fact that if she is widowed how is she continuing to have children. It seems to me something suspicious is going on.

Do all the following children have the same surname ? or could they have a different Dad? Where have you searched for a Death for Bernard ? Dancer x

Just thought ... maybe Bernard IS the father to all the children and he's NOT her husband ?... maybe she was actually married to a different Sowden ? Have you located a marriage for Mum ? Dancer x Is Your Matthew W Sowden, the one who's visiting the Crisp's in 1881 ... ?

yep they all have the same surname. It appears that Caroline married somewhere between 1861 and 1871. In the 1871 census she is widowed. But she continues to have children as in each census she has a new child under 10 years old. It just doesn't make sense and it is definately the same women. It seems to me she was up to something. I cannot find anything anywhere on Matthews father Bernard. But I am convince this is his mother, as everything ties in.

noticed that Matthew is not with her on any census. Son Bernard is with her and her married daur in 1901.... Rumpty-tumpty at each new address, not as if theres a lodger following her around....

So who is this that young Matt is visiting in 1881 ? Granny ? Name Estimated Birth Year Birthplace Relationship Residence --------------------------------------------------------- Hannah Crisp abt 1850 Welton, Yorkshire, England Daughter Cow Gate, Welton & Melton, Yorkshire, England Sarah Crisp abt 1810 N Cave, Yorkshire, England Head Cow Gate, Welton & Melton, Yorkshire, England +->Matthew W. Sowden abt 1876 Sutton On Hull, Yorkshire, England Visitor Cow Gate, Welton & Melton, Yorkshire, England and he's her Lodger in 1891 in Welton - didnt he ever live at home ? Maybe he disapproved ?

No Idea who he is with in 1881, could be his grandmother I suppose. As he is only 5, so a bit young to be a visitor. But I think Caroline's maiden name might be Peg. Matthew is with Hannah Crisp again in 1891 Bernard his father just cannot be found anywhere. I wonder if he could of been in prison. But that still wouldn't explain how Caroline the widow keeps having children. I am going to have to order his birth cert if I can find it, to confirm that Caroline is his mother. But I don't think it will explain what she is up to.

Even if he was in prison, he would show on a census. If he was a seaman (Hull ?) he would show on a vessel in port, but not one on the high seas. Sounds like a birth record is the way to go. Shouldnt be too hard given his dob & pob are consistent over the census years ....

Bernards occupation on Matthews marriage certificate is a Farmer. I have found the reference to Matthews birth certificate on Yorkshire BMD, so have that to order. But I don't think the birth certificate is going to help explain what Caroline is up to. so annoying

Why worry about whatever she was doing ? Its over a 100 years ago - she obviously lived a full and active life ...........

Siabhan Cannot see any reference for a marriage between Jan 1861 and Dec 1871 on 1837. Victor

Laird, Because I like to get an idea of the history of my ancestors. Not just a lot of statisical information and dates. That means nothing.

Hi Siobhan The only Bernard Sowden death on Family Relatives is in Hull but the 2nd qtr of 1920 and that's for a child aged 0. So Bernard either died before 1866 He upped and left Caroline and she said she was widowed rather than admit to that Bernard was his middle name and he's listed under something else Or the children were illegitimate and the father's name on the marriage cert was a false one Any of those (not so helpful!) suggestions make any sense! Lou

My husbands 3xg grandmother had 6 children and never married lived with her mum on 2 of the census's when there was 2 children were put down as her mums children then they must have forgot and they were put down as grandchildren. is there any older daughters who perhaps had children but put them down as all her own in stead of grandchildren? what about getting a couple of certs to see what they say? Jeanette

No marriages under Bernard Sowden between 1851 - 61 either I'm afraid. Laird has a point .... rather than worry what Caroline was doing for 20/ 30 years, find out who your young man's parents actually are ... as Caroline MAY not be his Mum anyway ... although, I must admit, my gut instincts in the past have prooved correct ... but only AFTER receiving the birth cert ! You didn't have to married back then, same as now, to have children !!! we all get lonely at times ... ! Go for it ... get the cert !! ... and keep us informed. Dancer x ps. Seems likely that BOTH his parents are dead before 1881 ... which is why he is with the Crisps in 1881 & 1891.

found a marriage for caroline pegg to john w sawden dec 1866 leicestershire, lincolnshire this would tie in with 1871 census caroline sowden 1839 born ingoldsby lincolnshire lodger living with her children elizabeth, fanny and martha good luck

I am definately going to get the certificate regardless. But I don't agree with not worrying what an ancestor was up to. After all isn't that a vital part of family history. To discover the history of your ancestors. I know alot of people just like to add names and statistical dates to their family tree. But I really do not see the point in that. As it tells you nothing about their lives and it is their lives I am interested in.

Thanks everyone for your help. I am going to order Matthews birth cert tomorrow and see what that throws up.