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Received an answer from Kensington Office within 12 hours!! They confirm that the entry they have names the mother as Elizabeth Lammiman so I guess I'm going to have to give up (NOT!!) Either it was written wrongly or I have the birth cert of a different Mary Ann (born at the same time) to a different Thomas (who appears in no census and was neither born nor died and an Elizabeth Smith who never married her husband, and never died and this Mary Ann didn't exist after birth either. Somehow I don't think I am going to get to the bootom of this Peter

OK - I have emailed Kensington RO to see if they could check the original for me - anyone know how cooperative they usually are? P

Hi Peter As far as I am aware the GRO is the secondary copy so it might be worthwhile double checking. Keith received a certificate with the wrong father's name put on a marriage certificate and it didn't come to light until we happened to check the original at the relevant local archives....so mistakes do happen. Gail.

The birth cert I have was from the GRO. Would it be worth my contacting the Kensington Registry Office to see if their copy is different? What are the chances of a mistake on a cert - which one is the primary source? Peter

Hi Peter When I checked the 1841 census images today for Kensington Town and that area there seems to be a lot missing. Could you send for one of the other children's birth certificates and see if it says the same........it may have just been an error. Gail.

I now have Mary Ann's marriage cert. It is a wealth of information. Mary Ann(Spinster 21) Thomas Monger bachelor 20 (suspect she knocked a couple of years off because he was younger. Her father Thomas, fishmonger. Her address 9 Silver Street. Witnesses Jacob Sell (who married her sister Emily) and Jane Monger (groom's sister). Silver Street is now Kensington Church St and the Mall where she was born is Kensington Mall - so the whole family lived in very close proximity. So it all fits - EXCEPT her birth cert gives her mother as Elizabeth Smith when her maiden name was Gowing and she was a spinster at marriage - WHAT AM I MISSING???? Peter

Thanks. Interestingly....... Mary Ann was b 1842 at '2 Mall' Kensington. Arthur Frank in 1901 is at 4Mall Cottages - coincidence? Peter In Auckland where it's supposed to be summer - or will be when it stops raining!!

1851 address for Thomas and Elizabeth Lamminman and children looks like 5 Uxbridge Street Christine

Thanks - the Lammiman's are at 9 Silver St in 1861, are they there in 51? Peter

address for the above 1851 for Gowing is 25 Silver Street.

....could someone give me the 1851 address please? Peter (still looking)

1851 with William Thomas Gowing as in the baptisms put on by June. William Thomas Gowing - Master Baker Age: 29 Estimated birth year: abt 1822 Relation: Head Spouse's name: Eliza Gender: Male Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Kensington Ecclesiastical parish: St John County/Island: Middlesex Eliza Gowing 33 Eliza Emma Gowing 6 Fanny Gowing 1 Mary Ann Gowing 4 William Thomas Gowing 29 William Thomas Gowing 3 Joseph Stanley 53 Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1468; Folio: 673; Page: 4; GSU roll: 87790-87791. Gail.

...Elizabeth Gowing, bap 30 5 1819 St Luke, Chelsea. She has a sister Susan Cleares Gowing bap 4 2 1816 same place - parents William & Mary. This ties in with Susan Lammiman who is actually Susan Cleares Lammimam, so the Thomas and Elizabeth must be confirmed as Elizabeth Gowing. Does this mean that there is ANOTHER Thomas Lammiman married to an Elizabeth (smith) with a dau Mary Ann who does not appear on any censuses(LOL) or is the Smith an absolute mistake? P

You searched for: Birth/Christening, 1800 - 1840, London Greater, England, British Isles Father: William Gowing, Mother: Mary Exact Spelling: Off Batch Number: C067053 [refine search] Prepare selected records for download International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 10 Select records to download - (50 maximum) 1. EMMA JEMIMA GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Birth: 17 JAN 1826 2. EMMA JEMIMA GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 12 FEB 1826 Saint Luke, Chelsea, London, England 3. MARY ANN GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 31 MAR 1811 Saint Luke, Chelsea, London, England 4. WILLIAM THOMAS GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 04 SEP 1821 5. WILLIAM THOMAS GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 07 OCT 1821 Saint Luke, Chelsea, London, England 6. ELIZABETH GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 30 MAY 1819 Saint Luke, Chelsea, London, England 7. SUSAN CLEARS GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Female Christening: 04 FEB 1816 Saint Luke, Chelsea, London, England 8. SIMON GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 22 AUG 1824 Saint Luke, Chelsea, London, England 9. JACOB GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Birth: 10 MAY 1814 10. JACOB GOWING - International Genealogical Index Gender: Male Christening: 23 JUL 1815 Saint Luke, Chelsea, London, England June x

Hi Peter, Right....back to square one :-) Regards Vera

On marriage cert Elizabeth Gowing, spinster, father William Gowing (baker) P

Hi Peter Could Elizabeth ... Marys mother .... have been a widow when she married Thomas.... Gowling could have been her married name and Smith her maiden....or the other way round !!!! What do you think. Regards Vera

Thanks - I'm pretty certain the mother is Elizabeth Gowing....question is why can't I find her, or her father, in 1841 and why is Mary Ann's mother formerly SMITH on the birth cert.? (the birth is in Nov 1842, Thomas married Eliz Gowing in May 1842) It's got me beaten at the moment P

Name: Susan * Lammeman Year of Registration: 1846 Quarter of Registration: Jan-Feb-Mar District: Kensington County: Greater London, London, Middlesex Volume: 3 Page: 333 (click to see others on page) Name: Emily Elizabeth Lammiam Year of Registration: 1844 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Kensington County: Greater London, London, Middlesex Volume: 3 Page: 293 (click to see others on page) Name: Thomas Lammerman Year of Registration: 1858 Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun District: Kensington County: Greater London, London, Middlesex Volume: 1a Page: 15 (click to see others on page) Name: Ellen Sarah Lammiman Year of Registration: 1847 Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec District: Kensington County: Greater London, London, Middlesex Volume: 3 Page: 322 (click to see others on page) June x

1851 census Name: Elizabeth Lamminman Age: 31 Estimated birth year: abt 1820 Relation: Wife Spouse's name: Thomas Gender: Female Where born: Chelsea, Middlesex, England Civil parish: Kensington Ecclesiastical parish: St John County/Island: Middlesex Country: England Street address: Occupation: Condition as to marriage: Disability: View image Registration district: Kensington Sub-registration district: Kensington Town ED, institution, or vessel: 13 Neighbors: View others on page Household schedule number: 212 Household Members: Name Age Elizabeth Lamminman 31 Ellen Lamminman 3 Emily Lamminman 6 Mary Lamminman 8 Susan Lamminman 5 Thomas Lamminman 37 Thomas Lamminman 2 June x