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Hi Julie, I believe that your Henry Jones died between the 51 and 61 census. On the 1861 census Eliza is living alone on Walsale St., Wedenesbury. She's a widow aged 45, born Wednesbury. Your Joseph is working as a servant, a groom in the home of Thomas Jones in West Bromwich. It's hard to tell if his age is 10 or 14 but he was born Wednesbury, so I think it's him. Still looking for 1841. Margaret

Hi Margaret Thank you so much for all the time you have spent putting me back on the right track. I have tried to find the 1861and 1841 census details on FreeCen but have come up with nothing. Please could you see if you could wave you magiwand and find these for me. I have had a look on the BMD website for West Midlands/ Staffordshire and have found a couple of marriages between a Henry Jones and Eliza however guess that these won't be correct because it would have meant that their first child would have been born 3 years before the wedding. Is the only way to find these details a parish register look up? Thanks Julie

From BVRI Herbert Jones, christened 28 Jan,1882, Hednesford, Staffordshire. Parents Joseph Jones and Ellen

Julie, I'm certain now that the BVRI was correct and that your Joseph Jones married Ellen Williams in 1872 and that Joseph's father was Henry Jones. I believe this is him on the 1851 census: Church Street, Wednesbury, Staffordshire Henry Jones, head, 52, labourer ironworks, born Staffordshire(can't make out name of city, ink blot!) Eliza, wife, 37, born Wednesbury Prudence, dau, 11 Ann, dau, 12 Esther, dau, 11 Francis, son, 9 Henry, son, 15 Jane, dau, 3 Joseph, son, 1 Children all born Wednesbury

Your family 1891: 63 New Woodlesford, Oulton with Woodlesford, Yorkshire Joseph Jones, head, 40, coalminer, born Wednesbury Ellen, wife, 40, born West Bromwich Frank, son, 18, coalminer, born West Bromwich Henry Lewis, son, 16, colliery labourer, born Claycross, Derbyshire Joseph Alfred, son, 13, colliery labourer, born Hednesford?, Staff. Benjamin, son, 11, scholar, born ditto Herbert, son, 9, scholar, born ditto Florence Eliza, dau, 7, scholar, born ditto Phoebe Ellen, dau, 2, born Woodlesford Percy, son, 6 months, born ditto And 1901 Hollinghurst, Allerton Bywater, Yorkshire Joseph Jones, head, 49, coalminer, born Wednesbury Ellen, wife, 49, born West Bromwich Benjamin, son, 21, coalminer, born Hensford Herbert, son, 19, quarry labourer, born Hensford Florence, dau, 17, housemaid domestic, born Hensford Phoebe E., dau, 12, born Woodlesford Percy, son, 10, born Woodlesford Lillian, dau, 5, born Woodlesford

I can't believe this! That family that we've traced through every census since 1851 is NOT your family. They've still got their son Joseph living with them on the 1881 census. He's 28 and still single. I'm beginning to think now that the BVRI was correct and your Joseph's father was Henry. You said that his father was definitely Isaac based on the 61 census but that was the wrong family. So is this definitely your family on the 1881 census? Cannock, Staffordshire Joseph Jones, head, 30, coalminer, born Wednesbury Ellen, wife, 30, born West Bromwich Francis, son, 8, scholar, born West Bromwich Henry, son, 6, scholar, born Clay Cron?, Derby Joseph A., son, 3, born Hednesford?, Staff. Benjamin, son, 1, born '

Julie, this certainly looks like the same family on the 1871 census and Joseph is still with them: 119 Percy St., Wednesbury, Staffordshire Isaac Jones, head, 60, shoemaker, born Wales Sarah, wife, 60, born Great Bridge Isaac, son, 21, box turner Sarah, dau, 20, domestic servant Joseph, son, 18, tube prover? Hannah, dau, 15, dressmaker Thomas, son, 14, scholar Children all born Wednesbury

Hi Margaret My Joseph Jones's dad was definately called Isaac per the 1861 census. I have been informed that he was a border in Wednesbury on the 1871 census however do not know where his family were as i've not been supplied with this information. I amn now wondering if i've been give the wrong marriage information - his wife is called Ellen per the 1881 census. Their eldest son was born in 1873 Francis (or Frank) in West Bromwich. Can you see any other marriage with these names? Julie

I went back to double-check that too and the 12 year old gas fitter is definitely Isaac and has been transcribed Isaac. I wonder if whoever sent it to you got it from another source where it was mis-transcribed? The writing is not easy to read. Also it matches up with the 3 year old Isaac on the 51 census. Margaret

Hi This is funny because the 1861 census details i was passed have Francis Jones son 12 Gas Fitter b Wednesbury. All the other details are the same. Julie

This is Isaac & Sarah on the 1861 census with son Joseph. Wednesbury Rd., Tipton, Staffordshire Isaac Jones, head, 47, shoemaker, born New Town, South Wales Sarah, wife, 44, born W. Bromwich, Staff. Isaac, son, 12, gas fitter Sarah, dau, 11 Joseph, son, 10, scholar Hannah D., dau, 6, scholar Thomas Wm., son, 1 Children all born Wednesbury except last one born Tipton. This matches the 1851 family that Reg had posted. Funny though that Isaac is a publican in 1851 and a shoemaker in 1861. And where's the Francis that you said was born in 1849?

I just double-checked that 1872 marriage of Joseph Jones/Ellen Williams and it definitely says that the husband's father is Henry Jones. Could be a mistake on BVRI. Margaret

These marriages from BVRI are all in West Bromwich, Staffordshire: Thomas Williams & Harriet Harley, 2 Nov.1851. His father Benjamin williams. Hers William Harley. Elijah Williams, age 28, & Phoebe Martha Grainger, age 26, 18 Oct.1874. His father Benjamin Williams. Hers Benjamin Grainger. Sorry, Julie, there are just the two, I thought there were more and I don't believe that the first one is a son of your Benjamin, it's much too early, isn't it? Margaret

Hi Margaret Yes please. It appears to be the correct family - Ellen was one of their daughters. I wonder why their marriage doesn't show. Is there anything on the BIVRI about Thomas Pugh or Isaac Jones senior or is there too little to go on (not sure how it works as new to all this). Many thanks for you help so far. Julie Hi again Update *******Slightly confused now - i thought Joseph's dad was Isaac who married Sarah Pugh. This was the info i had:- HL Jones (my gg grandad) born Claycross Derbyshire - on 1891 census living in Oulton, Leeds Yorkshire with his parents Joseph born c1851 Wednesbury, Staffordshire and Ellen born c1851 West Bromwich. On the 1881 census they are living in Cannock, Stafford. Someone traced a wedding for me in 1872 between Joseph and Ellen in West Bromwich.

Julie, are you interested in the marriages of some of the other children of Benjamin Williams that are on the BVRI discs? Margaret

Julie, I can't find the marriage of your Benjamin Williams & Elizabeth on the BVRI discs. Wonder if this is the marriage of their daughter Ellen? Joseph Jones,age 22, married Ellen Williams, age 20, 25 Feb.1872, West Bromwich. Husband's father- Henry Jones. Wife's father- Benjamin Williams. FHL Film 1526218

This is from the BVRI: Isaac Jones married Sarah Pugh, 30 Aug.1846, West Bromwich, Staffordshire. Husband's father- Isaac Jones. Wife's father- Thomas Pugh. FHL Film 1526219

Hi Sam Thanks for that - any idea how i can check - new to research. I guess i wouldn't be able to prove it if i purchased the marriage cert? Julie

This could be a possibility for the second marriage: West Midlands Marriage indexes for the years: 1846 Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference JONES Isaac PUGH Sarah West Bromwich, Christ Church Sandwell 23/2/4 Sam x