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thank you Yvonne but that is the census posted by Gins above which we now know to be wrong.

I'm sure you're right, Gins, that there is a connection between the families. I wonder if Phoebe is William's sister, and they both had daughters called Martha - maybe after their mother?

I'm looking at this one:

Name: Martha Gilbert
Age: 17
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
Relation: Servant (Employee)
Gender: Female
Where born: Birmingham, Warwickshire, England
Civil Parish: Birmingham
Ecclesiastical parish: St Martin

County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: Lady Wood
ED, institution, or vessel: 12
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 87
Piece: 2051
Folio: 318
Page Number: 23

Richard Thomas 46
Caroline Thomas 63
John Thomas 7
Sydney Hunt Thomas 2
George Benj Thomas 4 Mo
Martha Gilbert 17 Servant <<<

but clutching at straws!

Martha Gilbert
England and Wales Census, 1851
Name: Martha Gilbert
Age: 16
Gender: F
Birthplace: Westbromwich, Staffordshire
Relationship to Head of Household: Daughter
Schedule Type: Household

Sorry Beverley

Cooking dinner and in and out does not help me to focus!

I'd say there has to be a connection, finding it may take time!

Oh dear this is all very confusing.
Richard Lloyd did indeed marry Phoebe Gilbert in 1848. Her father said to be Thomas Gilbert.
HOWEVER
In 1861 Richard is a widower and his daughter (unmarried) Martha is still living with him :(
Wrong family, right names.
Back to the drawing board I'm afraid.

So Martha would be the daughter of Phoebe Gilbert who later married Richard Lloyd (coincidence in the surnames!) .....

Hmm that's a good find.
What on earth could the family relationships be?
I have been assuming (and maybe wrongly) that in 1861 William is Martha's father. The fact is that on the Ancestry photocopy of her marriage certificate the fathers' names are not visible (or not included).

Same family in 41



Name:Martha Gilbert

Age:7

Estimated Birth Year:abt 1834

Gender:Female

Where born:Staffordshire, England

Civil Parish:West Bromwich

Hundred:South Offlow

County/Island:Staffordshire

Registration district:West Bromwich

Sub-registration district:West Bromwich North East

Piece:977

Book:10

Folio:5

Page Number:2

Household Members:




Martha Gilbert 7

Hello Gins
It's hard to read but I don't think so. The first letter doesn't look like the W which is the first letter of William.. It does look the same as the first letter of Martha. Maybe it says 'Mar' or 'Mar'd'.

What about this?



Martha Gilbert
[Martha Lloyd]

Age:16

Estimated Birth Year:abt 1835

Relation:Daughter (Child)

Father's name:Richard Lloyd

Mother's name:Phoebe Lloyd

Gender:Female

Where born:West Bromwich, Staffordshire, England

Civil Parish:West Bromwich

Ecclesiastical parish:All Saints

County/Island:Staffordshire

Registration district:West Bromwich

Sub-registration district:West Bromwich North

ED, institution, or vessel:1bb

Household schedule number:47

Piece:2026

Folio:550

Page Number:14

Household Members:


Richard Lloyd 36
Phoebe Lloyd 37
Samuel Lloyd 9
Sampson Lloyd 6
Henry Lloyd 4
John Lloyd 2
Martha Gilbert 16

Is Martha showing as a widow on the 1861 census? Difficult to read but it looks that way to me

Hello all

I have the following family in 1851:

Bridge Street, Birmingham (St. George)
William Gilbert 38 widower, clock maker b. Birmingham
William Gilbert 16 son clock maker b. Handsworth, Staffordshire
John Lee 71 lodger, machine fitter b. Birmingham
Phebe Lee 38 unmarried b. Birmingham

In 1861 William senior is the head of household in Farm Street, Birmingham (still St. George ward):

William Gilbert 48, master clock maker employing 1 man and 2 boys
Phoebe Lees 48, unmarried, clock maker and housekeeper
Alfred Lloyd 24 Lodger, journeyman clock maker b. Handsworth
Martha Lloyd 24 Lodger, b. Handsworth
Henry Lloyd 4months b. Birmingham (son of Alfred and Martha)

Alfred Lloyd married Martha Gilbert in 1858.at St. Bartholomew's, Edgbaston, they are my direct ancestors.

I can't find Martha in 1851 or 1841.
The nearest I can get to her family in 1841 is a William Gilbert aged 33 who is a military medal maker married to a Mary also aged 33 with children
Mary 10
William 7
Ann 5
John 3
Josiah 2.

This could be the right family since they are living in Bridge Street (as does the right William in 1851) but it seems a big jump from medal maker to skilled clock maker? (Also William jr. was born in Handsworth and in this record he is said to be born in county i.e. Warwickshire). As you can see, Martha is not with them.

I have been looking for ages to identify William senior, his marriage and parents.
There is a William in Birmingham, son of David Gilbert, but this family are tailors and I am quite sure this is not the right family.

Any thoughts welcome!
Thanks
Beverley