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Perhaps his death has been missed off the GRO index?

Maybe he'd show up on the National Burial Index?

Christina..thank you, you've answerd a lot of the problem...well done on 1891 find ;)

Now what happened to Richard Sayer as there is no death registered?

x

Julia

This is not adding up at all. BMDs of all of them dont match census records

Theres no death for a Richard Sayer between 1881(census) and 1885 (Ann's aledged re-marriage to Bailey)

I think we need to start at the begining with solid facts.

How did you get to Thomas Goldsmith...what certificates do you have for him etc...

x

Sorry I did not reply before but I live in Oz and had to go.
Thank you so much for all of this, did I really put Joseph, shows I am not thinking straight as it was Josiah. All the census seems to answer all my questions. Headcorn was there and now I have her mother's name which was what I wanted. Thank you so much Christina, I really appreciate all of your help.
Julia

Parents marriage......


Surname First name(s) District Vol Page

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Marriages Jun 1839 (>99%)
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BALDOCK Elizabeth Sarah Hollingbourn 5 295
GOLDSMITH Thomas Hollingbourn 5 295

Her parents and siblings in 1851.......all pob as 1861 census.

1851 England Census
about Thomas Goldsmith
Name: Thomas Goldsmith
Age: 39
Estimated birth year: abt 1812
Relation: Head
Spouse's name: Elizabeth S
Gender: Male
Where born: Headcorn, Kent, England
Civil parish: Staplehurst
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Maidstone
Sub-registration district: Yalding
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Goldsmith 39
Elizabeth S Goldsmith 33
Thomas Goldsmith 9
William Goldsmith 8
Elizabeth S Goldsmith 6
Edwin Goldsmith 3
Jeremiah Goldsmith 1

So working backwards from what you are 100% sure of........

Here she is in 1891 married to Josiah (not Joseph) Bailey. Her place of birth is given as Staplehurst, Kent

1891 England Census
about Mary A Barley.......Bailey on image
Name: Mary A Barley
Age: 37
Estimated birth year: abt 1854
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Jonah
Gender: Female
Where born: Staplelnuth, Kent, England
Civil parish: Buckland
Ecclesiastical parish: St Andrews
Town: Dover
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Street Address:...19 Unnion Road
Registration district: Dover
Sub-registration district: Hougham
Household Members: Name Age
Jonah Barley 48........Josiah on image..... General Labourer.....Wootton, Kent.
Mary A Barley 37
Elizabeth Barley 13
Emma Barley 12
Edith E Barley 7
Richard Barley 6

All the children are born in Dover and their surname is Sayer on the image.


On the 1881 census, posted by Ginny, her place of birth is given as Headcorn.


Possible 1871.......

1871 England Census
about Mary A Goldsmith
Name: Mary A Goldsmith
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1853
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: Headcorn, Kent, England
Civil parish: Staplehurst
Ecclesiastical parish: Canterbury
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Maidstone
Sub-registration district: Marden
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Goldsmith 60 .....Ag Lab...Headcorn
Elizabeth Goldsmith 53....Sutton Valence
Mary A Goldsmith 18
Ellen M Goldsmith 7....Granddaughter....Staplehurst
John Corke 44....Boarder


And 1861........

1861 England Census
about Mary A Goldsmith
Name: Mary A Goldsmith
Age: 8
Estimated birth year: abt 1853
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Thomas
Mother's Name: Elizabeth
Gender: Female
Where born: Staplehurst, Kent, England
Civil parish: Staplehurst
County/Island: Kent
Country: England
Registration district: Maidstone
Sub-registration district: Marden
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Goldsmith 39......Ag Lab.....Headcorn
Elizabeth Goldsmith 32....Sutton Valence
Thomas Goldsmith 20... .Sutton Valence
Elizabeth Goldsmith 16
Edwin Goldsmith 13
Jeremiah Goldsmith 11
Mary A Goldsmith 8
George Histed 23.....Boarder

Youngest 4 children born in Staplehurst

Sorry to be so confusing but I am not certain exactly where she was born and where I got it from, I was told it was Kent. I did have down 1853 Headcorn but I think that is another person. That is why I asked where Ann was born in the 1881 census because I am sure that is the correct person by what I have been told before.
I know Richard's father was Richard Sayer but when I had this before it was a long time ago and now I am trying to find out something about Annie.
The only thiing I am 100% sure of is that she was 32 when she was married in 1885 Dover Kent father Thomas (laborer) maybe I assumed too much
Julia

Julia, sorry to be dim, but I can't see where you have got Annie's birthplace from?
Jan

Does Ann's say where she was born?

I think I have worked it out. This would be Ann's first marriage to Richard Sayer, as you can see he is 26 and she is 28 which would make her birth 1853. They had four children so I was told and there are three here. It looks as if Richard died between 1881 and 1885 when she remarried. What do you think?

1881 England Census
about Ann Sayer
Name: Ann Sayer
Age: 45
Estimated birth year: abt 1836
Relation: Wife
Spouse's name: Richard
Gender: Female
Where born: Barham, Kent, England

Civil parish: Buckland in Dover
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address: 1 George Street
Condition as to marriage: Married
Education:

Employment status: View image
Occupation: Nil

Registration district: Dover
Sub-registration district: Hougham
ED, institution, or vessel: 3
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Richard Sayer 55
Ann Sayer 45
Richard Sayer 26 <<<<<Patricksbourne, Kent Occ Carpenter
Ann Sayer 28 <<<<<<<<<Headcorn, Kent
Lizzie Sayer 3
Emmer Sayer 2
John Sayer 14
Henry Brooks 40
Edward Wakefield 20

She was married to Richard under Mary Ann but to Joseph under Annie

So its not Annie its Mary Ann?

Quite agree, it is a problem. I will give you what I know. I have a Mary Ann Goldsmith born abt 1853. I have her marriage certificate as Annie Sayer (23) (widow) to Joseph Bailey (father Thomas Goldsmith labourer) She was married before to Richard Sayer 1876 Dover and left a widow with four children. She married again to Joseph 19 Sep 1885 The Parish Church, Buckland Kent. I cannot find her on any census even 1881 so thought I would start looking for her father (perhaps not a good idea) When I saw 1881 census of Thomas & Annie I thought they could be the correct ones.
So you think this might help, I was trying not to make it complicated but obviously I have not succeeded.
Julia

How have you come by Annie?
Jan

Births Mar 1855 (>99%)
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Goldsmith Annie Kensington 1a 42

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Births Jun 1860 (>99%)
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Goldsmith Annie Eliza Poplar 1c 614



Parents of the above are William and Jane on both counts No other Annie born anywhere near the date you give.

I think you may be getting families mixed up. Do you want to start at the begining with the facts you have please

x

Sorry, had a grey moment - put John instead of Thomas in above post!!
Jan

On the 1861 Hannah (Ann) is 23. A birth in 1853 would make her 15 years old.

A possible for Thomas

1851 England Census
about Thomas Goldsmith
Name: Thomas Goldsmith
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1833
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Thomas
Gender: Male
Where born: Dartford, Kent, England

Civil parish: Dartford
County/Island: Kent
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability:

Registration district: Dartford
Sub-registration district: Bexley
ED, institution, or vessel: 1a
Neighbors:
Household schedule number: 174
Household Members: Name Age
Thomas Goldsmith 44
Thomas Goldsmith 18
James Goldsmith 16
Alfred Goldsmith 13
Edward Goldsmith 9
John Goldsmith 5



Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1607; Folio: 351; Page: 42; GSU roll: 193506-193507.