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Thank you all so much for your help.
You have helped me to solve a mystery that has bugged us for ages.

It's such a shame what happened to the children, going to a workhouse with no mother and father in prison.

Cheryl
X

PS -- Thank you Ginny, I got the other email that you sent

hahahah Ginny, bless you....

I only found it on a wild card knowing the year made it easier. Letetia h* 1843.


T x

Well, no wonder I couldnt find it on Freebmd/Ancestry!

Thanks T

Cheryl

You can order a copy of the death certs from GRO online

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

x

Hi Tracey,

Thanks for that. We are almost certain the info is correct. I already had the connection between Letitia 1812 and James ( her husband) before I even started my family history search 3 years ago . My father in law, bless him, did a lot of research the hard way, by going down to London. I think it was st Catherines house or Kew. He had got that info from the documents they have. All the other info that Patricia and Ginny got for me sounds right and fits in with the details we have.
It was bugging us what happened in the missing years. It's all coming together at last.

Is it possible to get a death cert from 1843 or would I need to go to Pakenham to look at the parish records.

Cheryl

Ginny,

These are the deaths Cheryl is referring to....

Parish Records Collection - burial

First name(s): Letitia
Last name: HARRALD
Date of burial: 15 May 1843
Age at death: 1 Day
Calculated year of birth: 1843
Place of burial: Pakenham
Dedication: St Mary
County: Suffolk


First name(s): Letitia
Last name: HARRALD
Date of burial: 15 May 1843
Age at death: 31
Calculated year of birth: 1812
Place of burial: Pakenham
Dedication: St Mary
County: Suffolk

There could be a logical argument that these are your relatives Cheryl, however a little more work would need to be done on this before you can 'claim' them!

I would recommend getting the death certs that go with these burials.

This appears to be the BMD's version of the event, (i would imagine translation of the handwriting has been a little obscure!)

Deaths Jun 1843
HURRELL Letitia Thingoe 13 346
HURRELL Letitia Thingoe 13 346

The death certs will associate either with the other (if it exists) and whom her husband was (if your lucky he might have been the informant, there's a good chance the birth was at their own home)


Tracey x

No Ginny,

I only have a tree on GR.
There is a public tree on Ancestry with many of my family on, It is Hems-Harold tree but I don't have a subscription so can't view it.
I am off work sick at the moment following surgery but was going to my local library to look at it once I am able to drive again.

Cheryl

Cheryl

Is that your tree on Ancestry that has 'Paul' as 'James Paul'?

x

This looks like Agnes in 61. The spelling here 'Harrold' yet on her birth record it says 'Harrald'....makes no odds really

1861 England Census
about Agnes Harrold
Name: Agnes Harrold
Age: 22
Estimated birth year: abt 1839
Relation: Servant
Gender: Female
Where born: Pakenham, Norfolk, England

Civil parish: South Weald
County/Island: Essex
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage: View image

Registration district: Billericay
Sub-registration district: Brentwood
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Christopher T Tower 85
Harriet Tower 78
Jane A Tower 49
Isabella Tower 47
Henry Harris 42
William Page 16
John Stradwick 74
George Pomfret 46
William M Peacock 14
Marrion Pond 36
Georgina Pond 27
Mary A Upson 30
Jessy Smith 20
Mary A Taylor 23
Agnes Harrold 22
Elizth Harris 42


x

Cheryl

Where have you found the birth of little 'Letitia' in 1843 and also the death of her mom?

I cant find either of them?

x

Ginny.

I know this is really cheeky but I can never manage to find this info out. If I sent my email address by PM would you be able to scan the original transcript and email it to me.
Please don't do it if it costs you to view though.

Thanks
Cheryl

Thank you both. I will try to trawl through the census's for the workhouse to see if anything jumps out at me.
I did wonder about prison but I am useless at getting that sort of info.

update - I think I have found a death for Letitia on FMP ( I have a 14 day trial but am still trying to understand how the site works). We know that James and Letitia had a daughter, also called Letitia in may 1843, and we know she died soon after. I have found 2 entries under parish burials , both for Letitia and both burials the same day. The dates match as on the 1841 census it shows Letitia(mum) as 25. I read on here the other day that on that census the age was rounded down to the nearest '0' or '5'. If she was born 1812 it would show as 25 when infact she was probably 29.
If this is correct it sounds like she died in childbirth and that would explain why James went off the rails.
It would be great if someone could give me a second opinion.

Thanks
Cheryl

England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892
about James Harroll
Name: James Harroll
[James Harrold]
Age: 33
Estimated birth year: abt 1811
Date of Trial: 22 Oct 1844
Trial Year: 1844
Location of Trial: Suffolk, England
Sentence: Imprisonment
Crime: See Image
Date of Execution or Release: See Image

Larceny - 12 months

Looks like him. I dont have time today as Im at work but maybe look for Letitia in the workhouse too. Children and parents were in seperate quarters in the workhouse

I think I have found Agnes in the same workhouse. I have tried looking again for James and Letitia, but no luck.
It doesn't look like they had a very good start in life does it.

Barrow is about 15 miles from Ixworth and 20 from Pakenham. There is a church in Pakenham so not sure why they would have him christened in Barrow. There are quite a few HARROLDS in the bury st edmunds area, all with different spellings. That why I got confused. I dont know any siblings of James either so can't even check that against parents.

Thank you so much for your help so far. I have tried the obvious changes in spelling but never thought of the ones that you found. We have been stumped on this for a few years and like to solve things myself when I can, but this one stumped me.

Is Barrow too far from Pakenham?
JAMES HARRALD
Christening: 06 JUL 1813 Barrow, Suffolk, England
Father: WILLIAM HARRALD Mother: ANN C062641

I did wonder if Letitia died as she didn't appear with James in 1871. That 1851 info does look a definate match. Agnes would have been 12. I think in 1861 she shows as 'servant' so maybe she was doing that also in 1851, as she not on the census with the boys.

It looks like the family were split and 'displaced'

This looks like Paul

1851 England Census
about Paul Harrill
Name: Paul Harrill
Age: 17
Estimated birth year: abt 1834
Relation: Pauper
Gender: Male
Where born: Ixworth, Suffolk, England

Civil parish: Bury St Edmunds St Mary
County/Island: Suffolk
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Bury St Edmunds
Sub-registration district: Bury
ED, institution, or vessel: Thingoe Union Workhouse Bury St Edmunds
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Lucy Borcham 36
Harriet Marsh 26
Elizth Bridge 35
Ann Hammond 40
Elizth Watts 44
Mary Cage 27
Susan Symonds 61
Mary Head 33
Elizth Bray 12
Eliza Greengrass 39
Remiza Moore 21
Sarah Chapman 81
Mary Gills 80
Elizth Copping 36
Mary Arbon 30
Susan Arbon 36
Jane Nunn 37
Sarah Martin 33
Fredk Arbon 12
Seth Arbon 10
Philip Arbon 11
Lyas Arbon 8
Abraham Arbon 7
James Allmon 13
Edwd Allen 13
Joseph Austin 13
Henry Boreham 8
Samuel Bridge 13
David Bridge 11
Richard Bridge 9
William Bird 8
Richd Boreham 10
Charles Cross 9
Thos Cross 7
Charles Durrant 9
James Cooke 17
John Cooke 12
Richd Everett 13
John Fenton 11
William Fenton 8
Chilvers Fenner 12
James Gooch 14
William Gooch 10
William Greengrass 13
Isaac Greengrass 10
George Greengrass 8
Henry Game 11
Rithd Game 9
James Hagreon 9
Paul Harrill 17 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Walter Hurrell 13 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Jesse Hurrell 9 <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
George Hammond 11
Lowrie Jaggard 11
James Jackson 18
James Jackson 12
John Jackson 8
Wm Long 13
Henry Matt 14
Shadrack Matt 10
Robert Martin 8
John Nunn 12
John Palfrey 11
Walter Ruffels 14
Lyndall Ruffels 12
David Rose 18
John Stannard 14
James Stannard 9
John Woollard 15
James Woollard 9
William Austin 5
Willim Arbon 4
Ben Bridge 5
Fredk Bridge 4
James Channell 4
James Head 5
Willim Malt 2 weeks
Charles Rose 1 Mo
George Payne 4
David Ruffels 3
John Scott 5
James Crock 2
William Bridge 2
William Cuge 2
David Marsh 3
James Arbon 1
James Greengrass 1
James Crock 2
William Martin 4
John Wallis 2
Walter Nunn 1
David Malt 2
Robert Arbon 4
William Cooke 2
Esther Allann 11
Sophia Austin 12
Eliza Austin 9
Jamima Arbon 4
Lucy Arbon 8
Susan Arbon 3


The census looks like it could read 'Harrold'

Thats them Patricia, but they disappear after that

For background:
1841 England Census
James Harrold Age: 30 Estimated birth year: abt 1811
Gender: Male Where born: Suffolk, England Civil parish: Pakenham Hundred: Thedwestry County/Island: Suffolk Country: England Street Address: Bridge Street Occupation: shoemaker Registration district: Thingoe Sub-registration district: Ickworth
James Harrold 30
Letitia Harrold 25
Paul Harrold 7
Walter Harrold 4
Agnes Harrold 2
Jessy Harrold 8 Mo
Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece 1036; Book: 15; Civil Parish: Pakenham; County: Suffolk; Enumeration District: 7A; Folio: 11; Page: 14; Line: 7; GSU roll: 474643.

Yes thats our man.