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i am looking for any information i can get on william john burgess born 10 august 1909 address 15 edmund street camberwell north,mother eliza burgess formerly smith,father william burgess, this is all the info i have no other data available,only we think mother was blind and died after having john,dont know wher he would be after that,we do know he frequented the boxing booths in his youth,if anybody can help please.

1911 possible


BURGESS, John Head Married M 73 1838 Horse Cab Driver Etchingham Sussex VIEW
BURGESS, Sarah Wife Married
54 years F 69 1842 London Southwark VIEW
BURGESS, Eliza Daughter Single F 39 1872 London Southwark VIEW
BURGESS, James Grandson Single M 11 1900 School London Walworth VIEW
BURGESS, William Grandson Single M 1 1910 London Camberwell VIEW

Registration District:
Southwark Sub District:
Newington South EnumerationDistrict:
16 Parish:
St Mary Newington

Address:
12 Alvey Mews Walworth County:
London


I'm wondering if these children actually belong to Eliza Burgess. She is noted on this census as being blind from birth.

Eliza Burgess
Age: 28
Estimated birth year: abt 1873
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Sarah Ann
Gender: Female
Where born: Southwark, London, England
Civil parish: Newington
Ecclesiastical parish: All Saints
County/Island: London
Country: England
Registration district: St Saviour Southwark
Sub-registration district: St Peter, Walworth
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 415
Household Members:
Name Age
John Burgess 63
Sarah Ann Burgess 59
Eliza Burgess 28
Thomas Burgess 19
Caroline Burgess 20
James Burgess 1 9 months

Message from Patricia

the eliza i am looking for was formerly smith then married william burgess had son william thanks

Patricia

What was William's occupation on his birth cert?


Tracey x

Patricia, there is no marriage for an Eliza Smith to a William Burgess at all.

you need to consider other options, there is the fact that Williams second name was John.

dont rule out this family, John / Sarah, with daughter being blind is a factor.

perhaps a copy of the James Burgess birth might help ??

Mavis

For the sake of propriety husbands were often invented when it came to registering a birth.
What better name than Smith!
There is no marriage to match the couple. One in Surrey in 1909 but not yours. William Burgess married Edith Maud.
You cannot discount the information given because the birth certificate names a father I'm afraid and her blindness is a major contributing factor to it being the right person.

thank you all for your input as i said before the only info i have is on william johns birth certificate,he would never speak about the family,somebody just remembers thta his mother was blind,he was young when his mother died and wnt to live with a brother,i need all the help i can get on this one please. william was a gen labourer.eliza made a x where the name is entered i guess she couldnt write(see) the birth is regd north camberwell 15 edmund streeet

What else do we know about Eliza?

Deaths Jun 1911
Smith Eliza M E 43 Camberwell 1d 373

Do we also have a timeframe for how long after his birth she sadly died?

T x

Possibly the baptism of the Walworth James found?

London, England, Births and Baptisms, 1813-1906
about James Burgess
Name: James Burgess
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 23 Jun 1899
Father's Name: James Burgess
Mother's Name: Eliza Burgess
Parish: St John the Evangelist, Walworth
Borough: Southwark
County: Middlesex

Not that there's a shortage of Smiths around:

1911 census transcription details for: 15 Edmund Street Camberwell S E
RG14PN2487 RG78PN84 RD27 SD3 ED3 SN128

Reg. District: Camberwell Sub District: Camberwell North
Parish: Camberwell Enum. District: 3
Address: 15 Edmund Street Camberwell S E County: London

SMITH, James Charles Head Married M 32 1879 Coachman Commercial London Camberwell
SMITH, Emily Hannah Wife Married
9 years F 30 1881 London Camberwell
SMITH, James George Son M 7 1904 London Camberwell
SMITH, Sidney Charles Son M 4 1907 London Camberwell


Maureen
nee-you guessed it!

Was James the brother he went to live with ??

mavis

Nice find Maureen,

I do wonder then if she was maybe staying with them and 'adopted' their surname as her maiden name?

T x

When William John Burgess Married did he enter a father on the cert.
who are the witnesses

Mavis

william johns marriage to may larke 9 august 1941 father deceased profession of father cabman is this any help

It's all looking a little weird.

James Smith of the address of the birth of William Burgess was a Coachman....

I do wonder if Eliza has created an entire new life based upon someone else's?

Patricia

who were the witnesses, would like to know please

John Burgess [1838] was a coachman at one time

Mavis

the certificate i have is a copy from 3 march 1950 so no witness on this.10 august 1909 15 edmund street,william john burgess.sex boy.fathers name william john. mothers name eliza burgess formerly smith. profession of father gen labourer.signature,description of resident informant x the mark of eliza burgess mother 15 edmund street.when regd 13 september 1909 signature of registrar a.e.baker.and that all im afraid can you help please regards

Patricia,

I think Mavis was refering to the witness's on the marriage cert... as you mentioned a marriage.

T x

I don't seem to be able to find a death for Eliza Burgess ,abt 1873, was she one of those not registered ???

anyone else had a look ??

Mavis

Mavis

Deaths are very different when it comes to registration. A death must be registered to be able to dispose of the body (burial, cremation etc)

It maybe that Eliza isn't actually her first name! she might have been Elizabeth, or indeed Eliza may have been a second name.

I have looked for a relevant death, and have already asked for confirmation of when they think she died. 'A few years' after his birth could be upto 10 years!.... stories change over time and dates get shortened! We've had this before only to find the mother alive and well and simply just not living with the children.

We need to find out what proof Patricia has that she has died? Is this a family tale or are there hard facts she's not mentioned yet?

It could be with her being blind it was kinder to tell the children one thing but infact the opposite were true.... happened far too often. I have it within my own family!

I should add i'm 10 years into trying to find the death of my OH GGmother, she's becoming very illusive and i only just have a birth for her, her parents very kindly name 2 children maria Liggins, born 4 years apart and neither die!

Tracey x