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RMS. Do you remember the death certificate for Sarah Hartnell? Received it back today, all beautifully typed out. Why on earth do they not do that to start with!! Did not cost any extra. Anyway. The Sarah Hartnell in the certificate died on 25 Apr 1882 aged 75 years in Taunton St James County of Somerset. Address Bathpool Road West Monkton RSD. Sarah was the wife of Thomas Hartnell, retired farmer. Cause of death was bronchitis and debility. Death was certified by Samuel Farrant MRCS. Susanna Turner was present at death. Her residence was Eye Infirmary Shuttern Taunton. Death was registered 29th April 1882.

This means that this Sarah Hartnell was born about 1807.

If I had to guess, he is the William, born in Wellington and married to Esther.

Looking more at possibilities for William. We know he was born in 1830, that he was with parents John and Sarah in 1841 and 1851 census. There are four possibiities for him in the 1861 census. These are the Somerset ones.

HARTNELL, William 1828 33 M Wellington Somersetshire
HARTNELL, William 1826 35 M Wellington Somersetshire
HARTNELL, Wm 1836 25 M Taunton Somersetshire

This is the Devon one.


HARTNELL, Wm 1831 30 M Honiton Devonshire

RMS You are going to have to get William Hartnell's birth certificate. Before you do just check that the info on it will contain his mother's maiden name. That is the most important piece of info.

When you know her family name you will know whether I have the two families separated correctly.

And in 1836 John Hartnell married Sarah Western

3. JOHN HARTNELL - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 21 APR 1836 Honiton On Otter, Devon, England


Would you like to borrow the laser gun and ............ nope you'd better not!!

These are the two marriages with John and Sarah.


1. John Hartnell - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: About 1824 Feniton, Devon, England

First marriage spouse named as "Sarah"

2. JOHN HARTNELL - International Genealogical Index / BI
Gender: Male Marriage: 11 APR 1827 Clayhanger, Devon, England

The second one is with Sarah James.

Nope that is no good. When you put all the children together it just does not make sense. I have been searching further.

By the way here is the definition of husbandman.

Main Entry: hus·band·man


1 : one that plows and cultivates land : farmer
2 : a specialist in a branch of farm husbandry


There are two families with John and Sarah as husband and wife.

FIRST FAMILY

1841 census G**** Farm Honiton Devon

John 40 Yeoman, Sarah 35, William 10, John 4, George 2, Jane 1 mo.


1851 census Gardeners Honiton Devon

John 50, farmer of 100 acres, Sarah 47, William 22, John 14, George 12, Jane 10, Sarah Ann 7, Elizabeth 5, Mary 3.

This is where William belongs.

DateOfBirth ............... 10 Mar 1830
BaptismDate............... 09 Apr 1830
Forename ............. William
FatherForename............ John
MotherForename............. Sarah
FatherSurname.............. HARTNELL
FatherOccupation........... husbandman this fits in with his "farmer of 100 acres"

Here they are in 1861. William has gone but the rest of the family are still there.


John Hartnell 61, Sarah Hartnell 50 ,John Hartnell 26 ,George Hartnell 22 ,Jane Hartnell 19 ,Sarah Ann Hartnell 17 ,Elizabeth Hartnell 15 ,Mary Hartnell 13

John Snr's acreage has falled to 90 acres. Hmmm I wonder if he gave 10 acres to William to farm.





SECOND FAMILY

1841 census Vickery Cottage Stawley Somerset

John 40 Ag Lab , Sarah 30, John 8, Thomas 6, Richard 3


1851 census Lower Cottage Bathealton

John 55 Ag Lab, Sarah 44 (born Devon Clayhanger word obscured edit it could be Clayhidon) Henry 3.

I think this is their marriage.
Husband
JOHN HARTNELL

Wife
SARAH JAMES
Marriage: 11 APR 1827 Clayhanger, Devon, England



Just to confuse matters there is a third family with John and Sarah. I have left them out because they are in Gloucestershire. They too have a William and a John Jr.

"OK comments please"

Your guess is as good as mine.

Well, That's a comment. !

John Hartnell was an Ag Lab, so I am sure he could do anything he set his little mind to.

I think it has to be William, right place, right parents(if he is Henry's brother) right right year.

COOL! WELL DONE

RMS. Is this William?????

County............... Somerset
Place............ Wellington
Church.......... St John's
RegisterNumber............ 1376
DateOfBirth ............... 10 Mar 1830
BaptismDate............... 09 Apr 1830
Forename ............. William
Sex................... -
FatherForename............ John
MotherForename............. Sarah
FatherSurname.............. HARTNELL
FatherOccupation........... husbandman

FileNumber..................... 6082


Why does he not show on the 1841 census. If he was born in 1830 and it looks like he visited his brother Thomas, a lodger, in the 1851 census time, correct age.

Oh this is so puzzling.

Edit. From 1830 to 1850 this is the only baptism in County Somerset with John and Sarah as parents.

This is the FreeReg link http://www.freereg.org.uk/cgi/Search.pl

Info from 1851 census.

Name: Thomas Hartsell
[Thomas Hartnell]
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1833
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Wellington, Somerset, England

Living with Wills family in Uffculme Devon as a lodger. Name incorrectly transcribed as Hartsell and corrected to Hartnell on the image. Take a look at the name above Thomas Hartsell/Hartnell !!!!!!!

John Wills 32
Mary Wills 32
William Wills 7
John Wills 4
Sarah A Wills 2
<<<<<<William Hartsell 22 Is definitely Hartnell on image. William is listed as a visitor born Wellington Somerset.
<<<<<<Thomas Hartsell 18
Not Kurmer Not Known 20

This is from 1851 census.
John Hartnell
55 abt 1796 Bathealton, Somerset, England
Stawley Somerset

John Hartnell 55
Sarah Hartnell 44
Henry Hartnell 3

In 1841 Henry was not born he was born in 1847 and James was born in 1848. Where is James on this census??

In this 1851 census John would have been 18, Thomas 16 and Richard 13. Looking for them in their own households or deaths.

If they are the same family!!!

While RMS is off into the woods of maple syrup land hunting bears with her trusty muzzle loader, I will endeavour to continue.

Well I have emerged from the dratted rabbit hole with no information. Had to open a Yahoo account. Each time I opened one account and tried to source the info it asked me to open another Yahoo account.

I've given it the proverbial rigid digit and cancelled everything cancellable. Hopefully the available information was as useless as access to their site.

Back to convential search engines.

I feel like Alice disappearing down the rabbit hole. Goodness knows of what I've just become a member. But the words Stawley Bathealton and Milverton caught my eye so I'm off on an adventure.

Description

A group to enable researchers to Seek and to Share information relating to Family, Social and Local History in the Hundred of MILVERTON, Somerset England.

Genuki's description:

"MILVERTON, a hundred in county Somerset, contains the parishes of Ashbrittle, Bathealton, Kittisford, Langford-Budville, Milverton, Runnington, Sampford-Arundell, Stawley, and Thorn St. Margaret, comprising an area of 12,250 acres."

Somerset Family History serves as a central entry point for the 40 Somerset Hundreds and will receive announcements of all file uploads to the 40 Hundreds.

Links to groups for other Somerset Hundreds and other similar groups are in a file in the Files Section.


I am currently awaiting the pleasure of the moderator to allow me access to the hallowed halls of the Group!!

Here is a marriage.

Husband
JOHN HARTNELL

Wife
SARAH JAMES
Marriage: 11 APR 1827 Clayhanger, Devon, England

This is the first time I have found both their names together with Sarah's maiden name.

If the 1841 census you posted at the beginning of the thread is them, and John was 40 in 1841, he must have been born about 1801. Sarah was about 10 years younger so she was born in 1811.

This marriage was in 1827. That would make John 26 years old and Sarah 16 years old.

The next births we have are of Henry was born 4th July 1847, mother Sarah H. nee James and father John Hartnell. You have the certificate.

If Sarah was born around 1811 she must have been 34 when James was born and 35 for Henry's birth.

I googled maps the distance between Clayhanger Devon and Stawley Somerset. It is about four of your miles. You could walk it on a nice day!!


The questions of course are why so long from time of marriage to birth of first child. Have we missed additional children. Is it worth getting the marriage certificate. As we do not know John or Sarah's parent's name at this stage might be a bit early to go rushing off spending money.


If the 1841 census is them, we have these children but there is no mention of Henry or James. The first born is John Jr dob c. 1833, then Thomas dob c 1835 and Richard dob 1838. If James was born in 1846 and Henry born in 1847 they were not born for the 1841 census.

That narrows the gap from 1827 -1846 to 1827 - 1833 and then 1838 -1846 with no children.


OK comments please. Then I'm going looking for births of the children in the Somerset etc parish records.


Now then if they were married in 1827 then the birth of James Hartnell in 1828 on the previous post could well be their son. By 1841 and that census he could have left home aged about 15 and been working elsewhere. Hmm bit youngish.

For example could this be the birth of James son of John and Sarah Hartnell.

1217 HARTNELL James John Sarah St John, 09 May 1828

Nope the date is too early. James marrried Mary Ann and their children were born 1865 onwards.

Edit: Here is another site which has THE name.

http://genforum.genealogy.com/hartnell/

http://www.wsom-opc.org.uk/Data/index.html

RMS Have you had a look here. I clicked on marriages on the left hand side and put Hartnell into the name box. It brings up some James Hartnell marriages. Dates are pre 1847 so before Henry married Ellen Lilly.

Hi Ann,

Except for the William living at Princes Place in 1881 I don't think the rest are related but they could be :-{

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1881

William HARTNELL Head M Male 50 Wellington, Somerset, England Gardener
Esther HARTNELL Wife M Female 56 Horfield, Gloucester, England
Elizth. ROACH Lodger U Female 56 Bristol, Gloucester, England Retired Housekeeper


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Source Information:
Dwelling No 4 Princes Place
Census Place Horfield, Gloucester, England
Family History Library Film 1341599
Public Records Office Reference RG11
Piece / Folio 2487 / 138
Page Number 10