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Hi there, I have come to a bit of a brick wall with some ancestors. It's all a bit complicated and perhaps someone else looking at it may be help. Also anyone with Ancestry access might be able to help as I know sometimes searching the censuses on there can yield different results than on GR.

George James Day was born in 1875 in Islington. He is my step-mum's great-grandfather (I am doing some research on her behalf). I have his wife and their children's details, I am just concerned with the next generation up.

George had two younger brothers, Ernest H (possibly Harry) and Herbert Andrew, born in 1876 and 1879, respectively, both also in Islington (or Holborn), London.

I have found George James Day in the 1881 census with his brothers and parents George Sr and Frances. Both his parents were 30 in 1881, making their DOBs around 1850.

My first problem is finding a matching marriage for his parents. After searching for a marriage between a George Day and a Frances, I found one in Q3 1875 in Islington for a Frances Tamsin Isaac. The first discrepancy is that George Day (Jr)'s birth was registered Q2 1875. I supposed it is possible that he was illegitimate, but in my experience illegitimate children were registered under their mother's maiden name. The second problem is after looking up a birth for Frances Tamsin Isaac, there is one match on FreeBMD - although the transcription is incorrect, by viewing the image you can see it is Frances Tamsin Isaac - that is in 1850 (which matches with the 1881 census) but the image (I am pretty sure) says Devizes (which would be correct with the volume number of 8). In the 1881 census, Frances says she was born St George, Middlesex. I know sometimes people make mistakes, but these two things make be uncertain this is the correct Frances. As a side note, George Sr was born in Berwick St James in Wiltshire.

My second problem comes trying to find the family in the later censuses. In 1891 I cannot find George Day Sr, Frances, George Jr or Ernest at all. I have found Herbert Andrew Day living with a sister Frances Day (born c1882 - so wouldnt have been in the 1881 census) where they are listed as nephew and niece of the head, an Arthur Newman. This would make me think that George Sr's wife was Frances Newman, but I found out not - see below.

By 1891, Herbert has married and is living with his wife and child. I cannot find the other's once again.

In 1901, I have found George Sr living with his mother. He is listed as a widower, and is not living with any of his children. His mother is also listed as a widow, but her name has been listed as Eliza Newman. Now, I would assume the only reason that his mother would have the name Newman and not Day is that her first husband (George Sr's father) died and she remarried a Mr Newman, who has also died. Also living with them is a Clarisia Day, age 19, who is listed as a daughter of Eliza. As Eliza is 79, I cannot see that this is her daughter. Perhaps it is George Sr's daughter.

With Eliza having the name Newman, I think it is obvious that the Arthur Newman from earlier is her son, and George Sr's half brother. I have also find George Sr again living with his son Herbert in 1911, but I cannot find him in the 1891, or the 1851-1871 censuses. I do not know who his father was, or who his step-father was (the Mr Newman who married his mother).

I apologies for the huge post, and would like to thank you if you are still reading. I just wanted to get as much information in here as possible. To clarify these are the things I am trying to found out:

1. George Day Sr's wife's name - possibly not Frances Tamsin Day, and when they married.
2. When did she die? - somewhere between 1881 and 1901.
3. Where are the rest of the family in 1891?
4. Who and when did Eliza marry the first time round? - George Sr's father, and therefore her maiden name.
5. When did her first husband die?
6. Who and when did she marry Mr Newman?
7. What children did she have in both marriages?

I know its a lot to ask, perhaps if anyone can help with any of them I can work towards to finding out more about them.

Many, many thanks,
Niall

Cannot see George's baptism on Ancestry.

Found Herbert Andrew:

Herbert Andrew Day
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 16 May 1880
Father's Name: George Day
Mother's Name: Frances Day
Parish: Saint Jude, Grays Inn Road
Borough: Camden
County: Middlesex


Source Citation: London Metropolitan Archives, Saint Jude, Grays Inn Road, Register of baptisms, P90/JUD, Item 001


He was born 28 Feb 1879.

Address - looks like 14 Weston(?) Street

Dad is a cabman.

Jill

This is the 1875 marriage of George and Frances:

George Day
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1875
Spouse Name: Frances Tamsin Isaac
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 19 Sep 1875
Parish: Saint Stephen, Canonbury Road
County: Middlesex
Borough: Islington
Father Name: George Day
Spouse Father Name: William Alexander Isaac



OK - not sure that this is your man.

Residence: Croydon, Surrey. He is a wine merchant. His dad was also a wine merchant. (I can see a change from a wine merchant to a cab man - if he was delivering stuff ... just not sure about the Croydon link?)

Frances - lived at Canonbury Road. Her father was an oilman.

Both full age, both signed.

Wits: Thomas Hadden and Maude(?) Adelaide Isaac.

Jill

Hi Jill,

In which case, I don't think that is likely that that is the correct one, with both the Croydon link and with the issue of Frances Tamsin Isaac being born in Devizes, Wiltshire.

Is there no other marriages that would fit? As his wife had died by 1911, and he was listed as a widower, George Sr had not listed how long he had been married, which would have given a clue.

Just searching on surname Day - parents George and Frances - around that time:

Frederick Day
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 16 Apr 1873
Father's Name: George Day
Mother's Name: Frances Day
Parish: All Saints, Laleham
Borough: Surrey
County: Middlesex



Source Citation: London Metropolitan Archives, Saint Andrew, Coin Street, Register of baptisms, P85/AND2, Item 002


Address: 1 Windmill Row. Dad is a labourer.


Another possibility:

Frances Clarrissa Day
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 1 Oct 1886
Father's Name: George Day
Mother's Name: Frances Day
Parish: Saint James, Clerkenwell
Borough: Islington
County: Middlesex


Source Citation: London Metropolitan Archives, Saint James, Clerkenwell, Register of baptisms, P76/JS1, Item 021


Born 6 April 1882. Address 2 Seymour Place. George is a cabman.



This one may not be yours but I'm posting it anyway.

Address is Harrow Weald. Dad is a labourer. Mum is likely to be Fanny - not Tanny!

Charles Edward Day
Record Type: Baptism
Date: 28 Jul 1872
Father's Name: George Day
Mother's Name: Tanny Day
Parish: All Saints
Borough: Harrow
County: Middlesex

Source Citation: London Metropolitan Archives, All Saints, Harrow, Register of baptisms, DRO/108, Item 002



Jill

Possible death for Frances?

You would need to check the image as there is obviously a confusion over the ref numbers (unless they are two separate women which seems unlikely)

Deaths Dec 1884 (>99%)
DAY Frances 34 Holborn 1b 498 Scan available - click to view
Day Frances 34 Holborn 1b 511 Scan available - click to view

Can't see another marriage around that time on Ancestry.

Spotted this on FreeBMD - although it's a bit late - but stranger things have happened!

Marriages Dec 1883 (>99%)
Day George James Marylebone 1a 1033 Scan available - click to view
LOWE Frances Marylebone 1a 1033 Scan available - click to view
SLIDLE Florence Maria Marylebone 1a 1033 Scan available - click to view
Wilson William Charles Marylebone 1a 1033 Scan available - click to view

Possibly a red herring?

Births Sep 1882 (>99%)
Emmerson Frances Clarissa Marylebone 1a 613 Scan available - click to view

Jill

OK - this is definitely Herbert Andrew Day. This cert will give you mum's maiden name and help you unravel it all a bit more:

Births Jun 1879 (>99%)
Day Herbert Andrew Holborn 1b 732 Scan available - click to view

Jill

there's a tree on Ancestry with George Day's wife as Frances Hodsdon


Marriages Dec 1874 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

BEASLEY Eliza St Geo East 1c 914
********DAY George St. Geo. East 1c 914
Fry Henry St. Geo. East 1c 914
********Hodsdon Francis St. Geo. East 1c 914


looks like christian name mis-transcribed, should be Frances

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
Name: George Day (Carman)
Age: Full Age
Estimated birth year: abt 1874
Spouse Name: Francis Hodsdon
Record Type: Marriage
Event Date: 15 Nov 1874
Parish: Saint George In The East
County: Middlesex
Borough: Tower Hamlets
Father Name: George Day (Carman)
Spouse Father Name: James John Hodsdon



Source Citation: London Metropolitan Archives, Saint George In The East, Register of marriages, P93/GEO, Item 062

Doh!

Choccy - why didn't I think of that!

Slaps forehead in complete frustration!

Jill

Oooh - just had a look at that marriage cert that Choccy found.

If it is the right one and Frances Hodsdon is your woman then her father was a Fellowship Porter. That's an interesting little line of enquiry in itself! (I have one of those back there somewhere)

Jill

Hi Jill & Choccy,

Thanks for looking all this up, it certainly is complicated!

The Hodgson one does look promising, its in the right area and after looking it up, Francis is occassionally used as a girl's name.

However, the one in 1883 is the only one that has George's middle name and is also in the right area. Perhaps ordering Herbert or George Jr's birth certificate is the best idea, then I should be able to get the correct marriage - whenever it was!

Has anyone had any luck with finding the family in the other censuses?

for reference -


1901 England Census
Name: Eliza Newman
Age: 79
Estimated birth year: abt 1822
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Stapleford, Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: Clerkenwell
Ecclesiastical parish: St James
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View image

Registration district: Holborn
Sub-registration district: St James, Clerkenwell
ED, institution, or vessel: 7
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 355
Household Members: Name Age
Eliza Newman 79
George Day 50
Clarisea Day 19




Source Citation: Class: RG13; Piece: 250; Folio: 107; Page: 43.

Niall

In your shoes I would order Herbert's birth cert first. We know it's the right one so it would help lots.

It is possible that Frances was George's second wife but cross that bridge if and when you come to it.

Jill

1851 England Census
Name: Eliza Day
Age: 29
Estimated birth year: abt 1822
Relation: Head
Gender: Female
Where born: Stapleford, Wiltshire, England

Civil parish: Berwick St James
County/Island: Wiltshire
Country: England

Street Address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View image

Registration district: Wilton
Sub-registration district: Wilton
ED, institution, or vessel: 6
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 19
Household Members: Name Age
Eliza Day 29
Sarah Day 6
Virtue Day 4
Andrew Day 2
George Day 2 Mo
Sarah Day 69




Source Citation: Class: HO107; Piece: 1848; Folio: 125; Page: 6; GSU roll: 220995.

This would have be a lot easier if you had brought Georges B/C then you'll have his MMN

possibly

Marriages Jun 1845 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Cornish Sophia Wilton 8 743
******Day George Wilton 8 743
******Leversuch Eliza Wilton 8 743
Potticary Joseph Wilton 8 743

Choccy, thank you! This is brilliant, George Sr's sister, Virtue, is a nice discovery as George Jr's daughter was called Gladys Virtue Day, my step mother's great-aunt who died in 2002 age 95, who I had met many times when I was younger.

This census records gives shows that Eliza Day (later Newman's) first husband died must have died not long before that census was taken as George was 2 months old. It also gives George Sr's paternal grandmother's name.