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Found Ruth Ashley (Dowdall) still married to a William George Ashley in 1911 census so that is not my grandfather who married Ruth in 1901. Also he was too old(67). At least we can rule that one out.

You have been busy! Thanks. Was wondering where John and Thomas Ashley (15 and 13) were in 1891 census. We think William was staying with Uncle. Have discovered John in Akbar reformatory school in the Wirral. Thomas was a pupil at a school(no name as yet) learning to be a tailor. Have tracked John Ashley (1842) through to 1911 census-still living with Mary and son Thomas(didn't make it as a tailor) and Daughter Esther.

It was also bothering me, where John was in 1881.
Think this might be him:-

Name: John Ashley
Age: 39
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Gender: Male
Where born: Delamere, Cheshire, England

Civil Parish: Vessels
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Street address: "Hope"

Condition as to marriage: Married

Occupation: Captain

Registration district: Birkenhead
Sub registration district: Birkenhead
ED, institution, or vessel: The Hope

there follows the list of the crew, but no point putting all that on.

The 1891 census:-

Name: John Ashley
Age: 49
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1842
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Kelser, Cheshire, England

Civil Parish: Toxteth Park
Ecclesiastical parish: St John the Baptist
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: Barge Waterman

Registration district: Toxteth Park
Sub registration district: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 34
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
John Ashley 49
Mary Ashley 44
Henry Ashley 11
Ernest J Davies 8 ( Step Son )
Esther Ashley 4/12
Samuel Ashley 9

Step Son is Davies which confirms marriage!

Yes George, I saw that too, was going to check it out tomorrow but couldn't resist. Here we are:-

Deaths Sep 1884 (>99%)
Ashley Ann Eliza 40 Toxteth Park 8b 199
making date of birth 1844 so that fits.

5 possible marriages for John, but this one is the only one for Toxteth Park:-

Marriages Dec 1887 (>99%)
<<<ASHLEY John Toxteth Park 8b 445
Bennett Henry John S Toxteth Park 8b 445
<<<DAVIES Mary Toxteth Park 8b 445
HUGHES Margaret Ellen Toxteth Park 8b 445

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1887
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ASHLEY John DAVIES Mary Toxteth Park, Register Office or Registrar Attended Liverpool REG_TP/8/59

so looks as though he did remarry!

Wondering if John Ashley, born 1842 married twice. In 1991 census he is listed with wife, Mary, son Henry 11(that tallies) and a stepson and other children. He is barge waterman-think that is similar to flatman? Not sure that he is same person.

Thanks for all your help. Will now look at birth and other marriage certificates for him. Will let you know what I find.

Could be Ann Eliza in 1861 ?:-

Name: Anne Eliza Lawlor
Age: 16
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1845
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: George Fredk
Mother's Name: Margaret
Gender: Female
Where born: Dublin, Ireland

Civil Parish: Liverpool
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary Magdalene
Town: Liverpool
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 9 Pudhoe Street

Registration district: Liverpool
Sub registration district: Islington
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 36
Household Members:
Name Age
George Fredk Lawlor 38 born: Dublin, Ireland (Shoemaker & ???)
Margaret Lawlor 39 born: Carlow, Ireland
Elizabeth Lawlor 9 born: Liverpool
Mary Lawlor 11 born: Liverpool
Anne Eliza Lawlor 16
Charlotte Maria Lawlor 2 born: Liverpool
George Stuart Lawlor 9 born: Liverpool
William Heggins 18 - lodger
Mary Ireland 70 - lodger

marriage cert. will again confirm or not (from father's name and profession).

Looks as though William George changed his name around after the death of his wife Mary Winifred.

OK so you can ignore the marriage in 1870.
I had another look for John Ashley to Ann E. ? and this popped up:-

Marriages Dec 1872 (>99%)
<<<Ashley John Liverpool 8b 244
CHRISTIAN Margaret Ellen Liverpool 8b 244
<<<LAWLOR Ann Eliza Liverpool 8b 244
STEPHENS John Alexander Liverpool 8b 244

ASHLEY John LAWLOR Anne E Liverpool, St. Paul Liverpool 2120LP/6/291

so possible marriage for his parents. There again the birth cert. will confirm this.

Also he was called George William on 1912 marriage certificate.

William George's father was John and he was a flatman, so that ties in with 1881 census and his mother being Ann, a flatman's wife. On 1912 marriage certificate William George's age is given as 38, but he had put 40 on 1911 census.

"If" his father was also William, then this is a possible marriage for his parents:-

Marriages Dec 1870 (>99%)
<<<<ASHLEY William Liverpool 8b 326
BROWN Mary Ann Liverpool 8b 326
CROSBIE Peter Joseph Liverpool 8b 326
<<<<MACKNEY Ann Liverpool 8b 326

His birth cert. will confirm this!

If you want to go further back you will need the marriage cert. if it is the correct one!

EDIT:- Ignore this one - see later

Possible 1891:-

Name: William G Ashley
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Nephew
Gender: Male
Where born: Liverpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Liscard
Ecclesiastical parish: St Mary
Town: Liscard
County/Island: Cheshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation: Oil Miller

Registration district: Birkenhead
Sub registration district: Wallasey
ED, institution, or vessel: 9
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
George Ashley 34 - born: Liscard, Cheshire
Sarah A Ashley 31
George T Ashley 10
Henry Ashley 9
Emily Ashley 7
May Ashley 3
Sarah Ashley 2
Martha Ashley 6/12
William G Ashley 19


and possible 1881:-

Name: William Ashley
Age: 9
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1872
Relation: Son
Mother's Name: Ann E.
Gender: Male
Where born: Lpool, Lancashire, England

Civil Parish: Toxteth Park
County/Island: Lancashire
Country: England

Street address: 169 Beaufort St

Registration district: Toxteth Park
Sub registration district: Toxteth Park
ED, institution, or vessel: 22
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members:
Name Age
Ann E. Ashley 39 - born: Dublin, Ireland (Flatmans Wife)
William Ashley 9
John Ashley 5
Thomas Ashley 3
Henry Ashley 1

So looks as though his mother was Irish!

I was wondering if this could be yet another marriage?:-

Lancashire Marriage indexes for the years: 1901
Surname Forename(s) Surname Forename(s) Church / Register Office Registers At Reference
ASHLEY William G DOWDALL Ruth Liverpool, St. Peter Liverpool 2122LP/96/187

Marriages Jun 1901 (>99%)
<<<<ASHLEY William George Liverpool 8b 10
<<<<DOWDALL Ruth Liverpool 8b 10
GLYNN Catharine Liverpool 8b 10
Glynn Catherine Liverpool 8b 10
Thompson William Liverpool 8b 10

however, I can't find a death for Ruth so unless on his marriage cert. to Mary Winifred he is noted as Widow, you can ignore this!

Search for Ashley born Liverpool between 1871 and 1874 -
found only one that seems to fit:-

Births Dec 1872 (>99%)
ASHLEY William George Liverpool 8b 206

Looks as though it must be correct as this looks like his first marriage:-

Marriages Jun 1907 (>99%)
<<<<ASHLEY William George W. Derby 8b 505
EDMUNDS Gertrude W.Derby 8b 505
ROBINSON Robert W. Derby 8b 505
<<<<SHANAHAN Mary Winifred W. Derby 8b 505

You say you have his second marriage cert. so what was his father's name and profession?
Also what was his profession?

Possible death for Winifred, would this death match with dates from 1911 census?

Deaths Dec 1911
Ashley Mary W 24 W.Derby 8b 679

makes date of birth as 1887!

George, what is his date of birth on 1911 census?
and how long does it say he had been married to Winifred?

pm from George:-
Thanks Catherine. Have just found him on 1911 census still married to his first wife Winifred (irish) with 2 young children. He was a widower when he married my grandmother in Sept 1912 and his daughter from his first marriage was brought up in Ireland. Didn't know there was a son as well. I have his marriage certificate.