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Marriages Dec 1859
Copsey Mary Ely 3b 1329
Venney James Ely 3b 1329

There's the source of Robert's middle name.

Oh, and -- James and Mary in 1861:

Name: James Venney
Age: 29
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1832
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Gender: Male
Where born: Stleport, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil Parish: Deptford St Paul
County/Island: Kent

James Venney 29
Mary Venney 26 - born same
Mary Ann Venney 9 Mo - born same

Norfolk connection?

1861

Name: Abraham Venny
Age: 32
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1829
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Jane
Where born: Ely, Cambridgeshire, England

Name: Jane Venny
Age: 25
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1836
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: Abraham
Where born: Littleport, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil Parish: Downham Market
Town: Downham Market
County/Island: Norfolk


If you search trees here for Venney born in Littleport, you may find some cousins.

You're most welcome!

I was kidding about "going" the Norfolk way -- it did look like the Venneys might be from there, but it was a matter of getting there first, before going there. ;)

It think we've snared 'em -- will be looking forward to the certificate!

Thank you so much.

Will get hold of Robert 'Venny' birth certificate.

I think I was going for the outwell/upwell link because of the workhouse! Got a tad confused but now you have set me straight. New to this game you see.

Would have been romantic to have an Italian artist in the family though!

Let you know the outcome.

Look who I found in 1871:


Name: James Benny
Age: 41
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1830
- rough match for age 47 on 1873 death record
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Mary
Where born: Littleport, Cambridgeshire, England
Occupation: Excavator

Name: Mary Benny
Age: 37
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1834
- rough match for age 40 for 1876 death record
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: James
Gender: Female
Where born: Littleport, Cambridgeshire, England

Civil Parish: Guisborough
Ecclesiastical parish: Cleveland
Town: Guisborough
County/Island: Yorkshire

James Benny 41
Mary Benny 37
Mary A Benny 11 - born Littleport
William Benny 9 - born Littleport (christened 1870, IGI record posted earlier)
Elizabeth Benny 4 - born Peckham (christened 1870, IGI record posted earlier)
James Benny 1 month - birth 1871 posted earlier


There they are.

Robert was born next, then both parents died, and Robert and James, the youngest, were in the workhouse in 1881.

Here's a possible for brother(?) James in 1891:

Name: James Venney
Age: 22
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1869
Relation: Lodger
Where born: Desborough, Yorkshire, England **

Civil Parish: Camberwell
Ecclesiastical parish: Christchurch
Town: Peckham

** Desborough is actually in Northamptonshire, so it kind of looks like the brothers themselves were a little confused about where they were born.


Heh, look what he says in 1901:

Name: James Venney
Age: 33
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1868
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Nellie
Where born: Gainsborough, Yorkshire, England **

Civil Parish: Camberwell

James Venney 33
Nellie Venney 28
James Venney 8
Nellie D Venney 6
Gladys E Venney 1

** Actually - the "ains" has been scratched out and "uis" written above it: Guisborough, not Gainsborough.

So in Robert's case, the clean-up involved changing the county to match the place name, and in James's case it involved changing the place name to match the county.

Well - I don't know where you'd be going if you go that way!

The 1901 census record Lew posted is your Robert. He was born in Guisborough. The IGI record Margaret posted matches this birth registration:

Births Sep 1872
Venny Robert Guisbro' 9d 508

So that's what I'd be getting -- to see whether it matches the info in the IGI and on your marriage certificate.

The 1901 census says he was born in Gainsborough, but it originally said "Yorks" and that has been scratched out and "Lincs" added alongside. Quite undoubtedly the enumerator got the country right first, and wasn't familiar with Guisborough, so wrote or copied the wrong place name. You have to puzzle out what the reality may have been when what's there simply makes no sense ("Gainsborough, Yorkshire").

It rather looks to me like father James died in 1873

Deaths Mar 1873
Venny James 47 Guisbro' 9d 350

then mother Mary relocated the family to Norfolk (which could be where the Venney family is from) and died there

Deaths Jun 1876
Venney Mary 40 Downham 4b 245

and that's where Robert and his brother James

Births Jun 1871
VENNY James Guisbro' 9d 479

were in 1881, in the workhouse because they had been orphaned.

So I'd start with the 1872 Robert Venney birth cert to make sure you have the right person.

Hope you all had a good easter.

Spoke to my uncle who's uncovered a copy of the marriage certificate between Robert Veni and Helen Broughton.

Details are:
1897 Marriage in Peterborough Register Office, Northamptonshire.
No. 76
Married 30 Aug 1897
Robert Veni/ 27 yrs/ Bachalor/ Brickyard Labourer/ Goodyer's Yard Peterborough/ Father James Veni (deceased)/ Collier
Helen Broughton/ 34 yrs/ Spinster/ - / Stanground/ John Broughton/ Brickyard Labourer.

Witnesses - Charles Snell and Sarah E Manchett.

Looking at the information you all have found it seems that there is a connection to Upwell/Outwell Norfolk. So I suppose that may be the way to go?

Well leaving aside the artist Veni then, and the odd un-English spelling your Robert seems to have taken on! -- I'd go after the James and Robert Venney born in Guisborough in the early 1870s, who ended up in an institution presumably because their parents died.

But you have to get back to the old *start with what you know*.

The way to find out who Robert Veni's father was is to get his marriage certificate.

Since you know his name, presumably from family, you know at least his wife's given name?

The way to find his marriage is to search at FreeBMD

http://freebmd.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl

just by his name, since it's unique.

If the 1901 census posted earlier in the thread is your Robert, then it looks like the only result is the right one, and he married Helen Broughton. As was advised, you have to get that marriage certificate, by ordering it here:

http://www.gro.gov.uk/gro/content/certificates/

Then you will have to take a flyer and order the Robert Venney birth certificate and see whether the father matches the name on the marriage certificate!

We all found this various stuff by doing searches for the surname as

Ven*

to cover Veni, Venny, Venney, and so on.

FreeBMD is free -- but if you really want to get into it, you will eventually want to subscribe to Ancestry.co.uk which is where we all got the census info here.

So get the marriage certificate, and then come on back to the thread and tell us everything it says -- fathers' names, witnesses names, ages, occupations and all!

Sorry, thanks for all the infomation. These people seem that they could be related but not sure about the artist though!

Spoke to my mum today about the information you found and she vaugely remembers her aunt (dad's sister) saying about the name originally having two 'n's but got corrupted to one 'n' because either their grandad or great grandad couldn't spell.

Just getting started on this family tree business. Where is the best place(s) to look for information?

Thanks again for all your help and i'll keep you posted!

Just to add -- didn't think to do this before.

With the info Margaret gave from the IGI, searched for just:

http://www.familysearch.org/eng/search/igi/search_IGI.asp?

father James Venney
mother Mary
region British Isles


Results for: British Isles
Father: James Venney
Mother: Mary

International Genealogical Index / British Isles - 3

1. ELIZABETH VENNEY Christening: 06 JUL 1870 Guisborough, Yorkshire, England
2. WILLIAM CHARLES VENNEYChristening: 06 JUL 1870 Guisborough, Yorkshire, England
3. Robert Copson Venney Birth: 22 SEP 1872 Guisbrough Circuit Wesleyan Methodist, Guisborough, Yorkshire, England

Extracted records, batch C105371 for the first two, C163371 for Robert.

Well after all the time I, for one, put into that -- I'm curious!

Do those people seem to you like they could be yours?

I thought the Italian artist "J Venney" particularly interesting, since Venney is not at all an Italian name -- but Veni rather is.

Thanks for help

Hmm.

1871 in St James Westminster, London:


Susanah Sleep 46 - lodging house keeper
Emily M Lugg 14
Jannet T Bees 13
John Bennett 58 - Agent
Lewis J F Jones 36 - Major in the Army
Eugene D Bellwman 24 - Captain
> J Venney 50 - Artist, married, born in Italy
Alexder MacDonald 60 - Lt. Colonel

This could explain the children's placement in the workhouse:

Deaths Mar 1873
Venny James 47 Guisbro' 9d 350


Perhaps also:

Deaths Jun 1876
Venney Mary 40 Downham 4b 245

I wonder about these brothers in 1881:



Name: Robert Venney
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1873
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Name: James Venney
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1871
Relation: Inmate
Gender: Male
Where born: London, Middlesex, England

Civil Parish: Downham Market
County/Island: Norfolk
Street address: "Work House" Union Terrace



Searching at FreeBMD for all Veni events, though, there is a cluster in Downham district in the 1880s and 90s, whereas Robert's many children were all born in Peterborough district.


However:

Births Jun 1871
VENNY James Guisbro' 9d 479

Matches this GRO entry:


Births Sep 1872
Venny Robert Guisbro' 9d 508

Could this be him?


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Robert Copson Venney Pedigree
Male


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Event(s):
Birth: 22 SEP 1872 Guisbrough Circuit Wesleyan Methodist, Guisborough, Yorkshire, England

Christening: 21 OCT 1872 Guisborough, Yorkshire, England

Death:
Burial:


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Parents:
Father: James Venney Family
Mother: Mary

You need to purchase marriage certificate


England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1983
about Robert Veni
Name: Robert Veni
Year of Registration: 1897
Quarter of Registration: Jul-Aug-Sep
District: Peterborough
County: Cambridgeshire, Huntingdonshire, Lincolnshire, Northamptonshire
Volume: 3b
Page: 549