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David

He could have lied about his father on the wedding cert! Many did to hide the stigma of illegitimacy. As for the surname being the same as the mother's, he may not have know his father's surname but might have known his first name and been told by his mother that his father was seaman.

I would get the cert for the birth Andy found and that 1909 marriage one.

Good Luck

hi again what you make of the father,s name of william caldwell on franks marraige cert, it sayes he was a merchant seaman, funny he had same surname as his wife, thanks andy for joining in all records you both got are same as i had exept andy,s birth and potty,s 1909 marraige.
Ihave sent off for agnes wedding to albert cert and that first birth potty found for frank and ill see what happens from there cheers for all your help Dave

Here the GRO reference for the Frank Caldwell birth that Andy found: 1883 2nd qtr Hull 9d 279 - the entire page has not yet been transcribed by freebmd but it is in Ancestry Complete index

Agnes in 1881, living in Myton which would tie in with the birth Andy found:
Agnes Coldwell
[Agnes Caldwell]
Age: 19
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1862
Relation: Boarder
Gender: Female
Where born: Leith, Scotland

Civil Parish: Kingston-Upon-Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address: 52 Walker St
Education:

Employment status: View Image
Occupation: Dressmaker

Registration district: Hull
Sub-registration district: Myton
ED, institution, or vessel: 56
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Agnes Coldwell 19
Lydia Nordon 51

David

The two marriages could be for the same couple. If Frederick/Frank was in the army, he would have need permission to marry and would have needed to produce his marriage cert for his wife to claim money if he was posted abroad. Quite a lot of couples found it easier to marry again than to find and produce the marriage cert.

This looks like Agnes Caldwell in 1871 - living in Sculcoates:
1871 England Census
about Agnes Caldwell
Name: Agnes Caldwell
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: Walter
Mother's Name: May
Gender: Female
Where born: Leith, Scotland

Civil Parish: Sculcoates
Ecclesiastical parish: St Paul
Town: Hull
County/Island: Yorkshire
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Disability: View Image

Registration district: Sculcoates
Sub-registration district: West Sculcoates
ED, institution, or vessel: 24
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 74
Household Members: Name Age
Agnes Caldwell 8
Edward Caldwell 3
Jane Caldwell 14
Marion Caldwell 6
May Caldwell 34
Thomas Caldwell 12
Walter Caldwell 35
Walter Caldwell 10

all my info came from my mums sister sylvia, about her father and bits from mum . the dates she got were writen down in a diary left to her by her father .
i have the 1906 wedding , frank was in royal marines yes based at stonehouse he was a private /barber.
yes i will check out that other looks interesting !! have just sent off for alice savage birth ill open tree for you to look at but sorry be back on here later as gotta go out now cheers dave

Frank, Agnes and Alfred 1891:
Frank Barr
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1883
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Alfred
Mother's Name: Agnes - born Leith, Scotland
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: Chelsea
Ecclesiastical parish: St Saviour
County/Island: London
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: Chelsea
Sub-registration district: Chelsea, North
ED, institution, or vessel: 14
Neighbors: View others on page
Household Members: Name Age
Agnes Barr 30
Alfred Barr 31
Frank Barr 8

If this is him, where did Frederick in his name come from?

Marriage ???

Agnes Caldwell
Year of Registration: 1887
Quarter of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec
District: Wandsworth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 941

Alfred Henry Barr

Andy

This could be Frank's birth on Yorkshire BMD site

1883

CALDWELL Frank Myton Hull MYT/140/266

Andy

David,

If you haven't got that 1909 marriage cert, I would send for it.

Have you managed to get back further with Alice Savage?

There are several in 1901 who could be her. Some in Chelsea and some in Kent!

Frederick in 1901 ( in the Army)
Frederick Frank Barr
Age: 21
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1880
Relation: Private
Gender: Male
Where born: Hull, Yorkshire, England

Civil Parish: East Stonehouse
Ecclesiastical parish: St George
Town: East Stonehouse
County/Island: Devon
Country: England

Street address:

Occupation:

Condition as to marriage:

Education:

Employment status: View Image

Registration district: East Stonehouse
Sub-registration district: East Stonehouse
ED, institution, or vessel: Royal Marine Barracks
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 1
Household Members: Name Age
Charles J Baker 22
William Baker 17
Albert J Banks 26
Frederick Frank Barr 21

If you haven't got Frederick's Frank's birth cert how do you know his YOB and POB?

Which of these marriages have you got for her parents:
Marriages Jun 1909 (>99%)
BARR Frederick Frank Medway 2a 1318
SAVAGE Alice Adele Medway 2a 1318

Marriages Dec 1906 (>99%)
CALDWELL Frank Chelsea 1a 856
SAVAGE Alice Adele Chelsea 1a 856

thanks for help potty

so alice adele caldwell on cert are all christian names and her surname is the barr under her father,s col?

no 2nd col alice adele colwell crosed out caldwell underneath. 4th col frank barr

David,

I found the birth on freebmd - entered just the first names, Frederick Frank, 1883 for year and selected Sculcoates for the District. It was the only one that came up.

The search facility on freebmd is much better than Ancestry's!

on her birth cert it has her as alice adele caldwell, but her father as frank barr her mother alice savage

Where on your mother's birth certificate does Caldwell appear. Is it in the column under "Name, if any"? And is the father's name given as Frank Barr? If so, she was Alice A Caldwell Barr. The Caldwell is a third christian name, not her surname.

yes thats mum, well it must do!! i thought at first it was for caldwell-barr but was not the case on real cert