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I am trying to find details of my greatgrandfather John Payton b. c1841 in Bury Lancashire. Married to Eliza Gibbins born in Cork Ireland. I have not been as yet been able to find any other record of him apart from Eliza in every census referring to herself as Married.
I have 3 thoughts but don't know how to prove it.
1... he had died but she still said that she was married
2... he was in prison
3... he was serving in the army.
If anyone has any ideas as to how I could proceed to find out where he was and hopefully take the records further back
Any help or hints much appreciated!

Where and when did they marry? I don't see the marriage at FreeBMD on a quick search.

You have him in earlier censuses and that's how you know his approx dob? I can only find one in 1861 born c1850, son of Frances (Francis) and Sabina.

If they married in Ireland, that would indeed be a good indication that he was in the military.

So this is not them??

1891

Name: John Payton
Age: 40
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Head
Spouse's Name: Eliza
Gender: Male
Where born: Bury, Lancashire, England

Name: Eliza Payton
Age: 36
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1855
Relation: Wife
Spouse's Name: John
Gender: Female
Where born: Cork, Ireland

Town: Bury
County/Island: Lancashire

John Payton 40 - occupation Bricklayer's Labourer
Eliza Payton 36
Mary Ann Payton 9 - born in Cork
Frank Payton 1 - born in Bury

I kind of think that is him. So he was born c1851, not c1841.

1861 census:

Name: John Payton
Age: 11
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1850
Relation: Son
Father's Name: Frances
Mother's Name: Sabina
Where born: Bury, Lancashire, England

Town: Bury
County/Island: Lancashire

Frances Payton 40 - born Ireland
Sabina Payton 45 - born Ireland
Margaret Payton 14 - born Bury
John Payton 11
James Payton 9

That Payton household in 1871 in Bury, John not with them:

Frank Tayton 52
Sabina Tayton 60
Margaret Tayton 22
James Tayton 1 month
Mary Cunningham 25
Margaret Cunningham 5
Sarah Manion 8


If I have the right people, your John had a son Frank.

Eliza, like many others, visited the fountain of youth over the years. ;)


1911

PAYTON ELIZA 1863 48 Bury Lancashire
PAYTON MARY ANN 1882 29 Bury Lancashire


1901 in Bury

Eliza Payton 45
Frank Payton 12


Since they seem to have had a daughter born c1881-2 in Ireland, and they don't seem to be in the 1881 English census, marriage in Ireland seems likely? (I assume you have her surname from the birth certificate of a child born in England?)

Births Sep 1889
Payton Frank Bury 8c 551

Hi Janey,
Thank you so much for taking so much trouble, I had the 1891 with him on it and Eliza on the following 2 census where she still reffers to herself as married (either a mistake or he was living elsewhere).
As for the 1861 & 1871 results you have found that is fantastic... the dates really seem to tie in as well as the names. Especially if his family was from Ireland as well that would make the dissapearance around the time Mary Ann was born from the records. Frank (my mothers father) died when she was only 12 and they didn't have much to do with the Payton side of the family after that time... due to different opinions over the religion the children should be brought up in.
The misspelling of the surname might be why I have had so much trouble finding earlier records. It is still a puzzle as to where he was in the 1901 and 1911 census.
Do you know of any way of checking army or prision records around that time... then again he may have been back in Ireland for short visits when the census was being taken, does any of that see plauseable?
Eliza's maiden name was Gibbins and my grandfathers birth certificate say's she was born in Cork City, Ireland so finding out many more details would mean using a specialised Irish site.
I really want to thank you so much for the missing links you have unearthed... I was going around in circles.

I realise that you have done loads to help me but could I impose on your help with another member of the family that is proving really difficult.
Lewis Sheridan b. c1857 it gives him as being born in Birmingham warwick. I have him on the 1891, 1901 & 1911 census but can't find any trace of him prior to his marriage to Hannah Price around Dec 1885.
There is family story that he came over from the Tipperary area of Ireland, but with the records I have found it gives Birmingham as the birth place.
In the 1891 census it has his sister (who nobody knew about) living with him and his wife and son living with her parents. Apart from that I am completely stuck as no Lewis seems to show up prior to 1885.
Any light you could shine on this would be amazing and I would be extreemely grateful

Thanks again for the information you have found for me.
Dawn

I have now found the 1861 census records you gave me but can't for some reason find the 1871 record at all, and James's age has gone down to 1 month.
Am I reading this right?
Dawn

You're most welcome! But it's late where I'm at and I'm a little braindead, so give me a bit of time. ;)

For the 1871 census - could depend on where you're looking. At Ancestry, I searched for Frank by birth place and date with wife Sabina, no surname, and immediately saw "Tayton". Try doing that.

I think the James (Tayton) in 1871 is a completely different James - the next generation. James who was 9 in 1861 would be off and gone. I'd have to check the image again, but if the age is transcribed correctly I imagine the James in 1871 is Margaret's son.

... Okay, I checked the image. It's clearly Payton - because lo and behold there's another Payton household on the page. James is definitely 1 mo. He's listed next after Margaret. Then come the Cunninghams and Manion, who are boarders.

So James should technically be "grandson", but I think you can take him as unmarried daughter Margaret's son. That's actually kind of a handy error, since if he'd been "grandson" you couldn't be sure which child of Frank and Sabina he belonged to.

So the others on the page are: ... oh, for the love of ... Ancestry isn't giving me a link to view the others on the page. So I'll copy from the image.

Hugh Payton - 28 - born Ireland
Hannah Payton - 26 - born Ireland
Patrick Payton - 2 - born Bury
May Payton - 4 - born Bury

Did find him on a search w/o surname ... transcribed as TAYLOR, born 1843, Ireland, in Bury. Maybe if you find him? ;)

Probably another child of F & S? Could be useful info.

On to your other Q tomorrow!

"Lewis Sheridan b. c1857 it gives him as being born in Birmingham warwick. I have him on the 1891, 1901 & 1911 census but can't find any trace of him prior to his marriage to Hannah Price around Dec 1885."

You have her name from a child's birth cert?

... I was about to say now I'm the one who can't find him ... but it was Lewis Sherican I couldn't find. I did say braindead!

1891 in West Bromwich?

Lewis Sheridan 34 - head - married - manager, iron works, born Birmingham
Frederick Wallis 30 - brother-in-law, born West Bromwich
Theresa Wallis 30 - sister - born "ditto"
Ada Wallis 6
David Wallis 3
Albert Wallis under 1/12

Hannah is elsewhere?


Marriages Sep 1886
SHERIDAN Theresa King's N. 6c 623
WALLISS Frederick King's Norton 6c 623


That should get you the Sheridan siblings' father's name!

1871

Name: Theresa Sheridan
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1861
Relation: Inmate
Where born: Westborough, Staffordshire, England

Name: Bertha Sheridan
Age: 8
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1863
Relation: Inmate
Where born: Westborough, Staffordshire, England

Civil parish: Stoke Upon Trent
Town: Penkhull
County/Island: Staffordshire
ED, institution, or vessel: Spittals Workhouse


1861

Name: T Sheridan
>>> I might read that as an L -- take a look
Age: 4
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1857
Father's Name: J >>> makes no sense
Mother's Name: C >>> makes no sense
Where born: G Bolton, Lancashire, England

Civil parish: Great Bolton
Town: Bolton
County/Island: Lancashire
Registration district: Stoke Upon Trent

ED, institution, or vessel: Spittals Workhouse

A Sheridan 55
A Sheridan 10
T Sheridan 4

Name: A Sheridan
Age: 55
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1806
Relation: Mother
Where born: Farnworth, Lancashire, England

Name: A Sheridan
Age: 10
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1851
Relation: Daughter
Father's Name: J >>> makes no sense
Mother's Name: C >>> makes no sense
Where born: G Bolton, Lancashire, England

They are all together on the image.


Something to consider!

No birth in GRO for Lewis, Theresa or Bertha.

But if those are the right people in 1861, Bertha was born between 1861 and 1871 ...

You didn't find this?

Marriages Dec 1885
Colleran Edward West Bromwich 6b 1204
McDonough Bridget W. Bromwich 6b 1204
> PRICE Hannah W. Bromwich 6b 1204
> Sheridan Lewis West Bromwich 6b 1204

Nope, bin those workhouse Sheridans.


1861

Name: Lewis Shirden
Age: 5
Estimated Birth Year: abt 1856
Relation: Lodger Son (Lodger's Son)
Father's Name: John
Mother's Name: Hannah
Where born: Dudley, Worcestershire, England

Civil parish: West Bromwich
County/Island: Staffordshire

George Bingham 44
Ellen Bingham 39
John Bingham 72
John Shirden 28 - born Birmingham, Warwickshire
Hannah Shirden 28 - born North Nibley, Gloucestershire
Lewis Shirden 5
Herbert Shirden 4
Theresa Shirden 11 Mo


Dang, I am good. ;)

So I finally gave up and searched FreeBMD for all Lewis-s born 1855-1857 in Worcestershire. Fortunately he wasn't John.

Births Sep 1855
Shirdon Lewis Dudley 6c 131

You are an absolute STAR! Thank you so much for all the effort you have put in for me. I have been going around in circles trying to get those two lines further back.
I am now really looking forward to getting hold of the certificates so that I can take things further.
Thanks again for your help.
Dawn

You're welcome! At least they were all just mistranscribed and not busy changing their names ... ;)

now that would be a nightmare! It is bad enough when you have the same names thoughout every generation!
Dawn

Ha, nightmare. Welcome to mine. ;)

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards.asp?wci=thread&tk=976217

It isn't in the easiest to follow order, but it started when I couldn't find my gr-grfather born c1852 anywhere before he married in 1883 ...

Along that way, I learned just about every trick there is!