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Martha's birth? From the new search facility on GRO

HARRIS, MARTHA (mmn) SAINSBURY
GRO Reference: 1856 J Quarter in PORTSEA ISLAND Volume 02B Page 373

A different version of the 1861 which may be easier to read. (Edit - malyon originally found it but has since deleted)

Peter Street, Frome, Somerset, England
First name(s) Last name Relationship Marital status Gender Age Birth year Occupation Birth place

George Harris Head Married Male 25 1836 Painter And Glazier Journeyman Poland (Russia)
Jane L Harris Wife Married Female 23 1838 House Keeper Domestic Work Frome, Somerset, England
Martha Harris Daughter - Female 5 1856 Scholar Portsmouth, Hampshire, England
Rachel Harris Daughter - Female 4 1857 Scholar Southampton, Hampshire, England
George Harris Son - Male 1 1860 - Frome, Somerset, England
Elizabeth Koul Boarder Unmarried Female 16 1845 Silk Throwster Frome, Somerset, England

Perhaps they never married, or Jane had been married before? She would have used her married name for her second one to George Harris

Baptism
County Somerset
Place Frome
Church name St John the Baptist
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 1064
Baptism date 22 Jan 1873
Person forename Martha
Person abode Peter Street
Father surname HARRIS
Father occupation Painter and Glazier
Mother forename Jane
Register note aged 17; The father is a Jew and therefore bears no Xn name


Baptism
County Somerset
Place Frome
Church name Holy Trinity
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 51
Baptism date 16 Jun 1861
Person forename George
Person abode Peter Street
Father forename George
Father surname HARRIS
Father occupation Painter
Mother forename Jane
Register note PB


Baptism
County Somerset
Place Frome
Church name St John the Baptist
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 1092
Baptism date 13 Apr 1873
Person forename Rebecca
Person sex ?
Person abode Peter St
Father forename George
Father surname HARRIS
Father occupation Glazier
Mother forename Jane
Register note Easter Day


Burial
County Somerset
Place Frome
Church name Holy Trinity
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 682
Burial date 21 Jun 1861
Person age 18m
Burial person forename George
Burial person surname HARRIS
Burial person abode Peter Street


(if Jane below)

Burial
County Somerset
Place Frome
Church name Holy Trinity
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 608
Burial date 09 Jan 1892
Person age 54
Burial person forename Jane
Burial person surname HARRIS
Burial person abode The Mint


County Somerset
Place Frome
Church name Holy Trinity
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 213
Marriage date 11 Jul 1881
Groom forename George
Groom surname HOWELL
Groom age 22
Groom condition bachelor
Groom abode Portishead
Groom occupation Labourer
Bride forename Rachel
Bride surname HARRIS
Bride age 23
Bride condition spinster
Bride abode Mint
Bride occupation Clothworker
Groom father forename William
Groom father surname HOWELL
Groom father occupation Labourer
Bride father forename George
Bride father surname HARRIS
Bride father occupation Painter
Witness Mark HOWELL
Witness Rebacca HARRIS
Register note Banns

Chris :)

http://www.freereg.org.uk/

(from above free link)


http://news.rootsweb.com/th/read/HARRIS-UK/2003-05/1051779709

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_topics/thread/802898

appreciate this

Interesting,so maybe it was because of religion or perhaps him being foreign is why they never married or like was suggested, perhaps she was married before .

thought I'd try researching tree once again as hit brick wall with this line few years back , thought maybe marriage may be added in time but doesn't seem like it .. (naughty them)

Families, seems they don't want to be found

If you're trying to find Jane's parental family, have you considered this 1851 census?

Bell Lane, Frome, Somerset, England
John Sainsbury Head Married Male 34 1817 Glazier Journeyman Beckington, Somerset, England
Martha Sainsbury Wife Married Female 34 1817 - Frome, Somerset, England
Jane Sainsbury Daughter - Female 13 1838 - Frome, Somerset, England
John Sainsbury Son - Male 10 1841 - Frome, Somerset, England
Elizabeth Sainsbury Daughter - Female 7 1844 - Frome, Somerset, England
Samuel Sainsbury Son - Male 2 1849 - Frome, Somerset, England

Note John's occupation of Glazier Journey man. George Harris was also a Glazier.
His wife is named as Martha, the same name as George and Jane Harris's first girl

Picking up on the other thread about this family -
"They had a large family and after Jane died in 1892 George married Mary Brooks on July 18th.1897"

http://www.genesreunited.co.uk/boards/board/general_topics/thread/802898

The marriage cert should tell you who George's father was, if he knew and told the truth!

Marriages Sep 1897 (>99%)
BROOKS Mary Ann Frome 5c 775 <<<<
Coles George Edward Frome 5c 775
Harris George Frome 5c 775 <<<<<
Pope Minnie Frome 5c 775

Actually, its been transcribed onto Freereg

County SOM
Place Frome
Church name Holy Trinity
Register type PR
Register entry number 494
Marriage date 18 Jul 1897
Groom forename George
Groom surname HARRIS
Groom age 60
Groom condition widower
Groom abode The Mint
Groom occupation Painter
Bride forename Mary Ann
Bride surname BROOKS
Bride age 46
Bride condition spinster
Bride abode High Street
Bride occupation Factory Hand
Groom father forename Benjamin
Groom father surname HARRIS
Groom father occupation Painter deceased
Bride father forename John
Bride father surname BROOKS
Bride father occupation Shoemaker deceased
Witness Frank BROOKS
Witness Mary Maria HILLMAN
Register note Banns

(perhaps him below)

Chris :)

1851 (Find My Past)
Ashar Rosenberg Head Married Male 30 1821 Master Glazier Poland (Russia)
Danniel Rosenberg Wife Married Female 28 1823 - Poland (Russia)
David Leon Lodger Unmarried Male 13 1838 - Poland (Russia)
George Herris Lodger Unmarried Male 18 1833 Glazier Poland (Russia)
Street Bath Passage
Parish Saint Martin
City Birmingham
Registration district Birmingham
County Warwickshire
Archive reference HO107
Piece number 2053
Folio 421
Page 34

Thankyou again for this, bit more i didn't have :)

especially the name of George's father..

Not a lot of info on him as was informed through family members that when he arrived in the country with his brother he changed his name.. I do find it odd that his fathers is down as the same surname ..

Seems that perhaps George and Martha met through work

Thanks for letting me know about FreeReg as package got can't access BMB which i find odd

Different transcription on Ancestry:

George Herard
in the 1851 England Census
Name: George Herard
Age: 18
Estimated birth year: abt 1833
Relation: Lodger
Gender: Male
Where born: Poland
Civil Parish: Birmingham St Martin
County/Island: Warwickshire
Country: England
Registration district: Birmingham
Sub-registration district: St Martin
ED, institution, or vessel: 15
Neighbors: View others on page
Household schedule number: 109
Piece: 2053
Folio: 421
Page Number: 34
Household Members:
Name Age
Achar Rosenberg 30
Daniel Rosenberg 28
David Leon 13
George Herard 18
Samuel Leichter 21
Solomon Gleadesman 26
Marce Jaskerlch 26
Abraham Warshaw 21
Masce Myers 27
Simon Myers 22
Morris Solomon 20
Jacob Herris 15
Abraham Rosenberg 3
Hanne Rosenberg 7

Out of interest would anyone know what this means

The father is a Jew and therefore bears no Xn name ?
Noticed on one of the baptisms, Marthas I believe

Out of interest would anyone know what this means

The father is a Jew and therefore bears no Xn name ?
Noticed on one of the baptisms, Marthas I believe

There are more people on that 1851 census. Note further down there is a Jacob, also born Poland, who may be related to George?

Bath Passage, Saint Martin, Birmingham, Warwickshire, England

Ashar Rosenberg Head Married Male 30 1821 Master Glazier Poland (Russia)
Danniel Rosenberg Wife Married Female 28 1823 - Poland (Russia)
David Leon Lodger Unmarried Male 13 1838 - Poland (Russia)
George Herris Lodger Unmarried Male 18 1833 Glazier Poland (Russia)
Samuel Laister Lodger Unmarried Male 21 1830 Glazier Prussia, Germany
Solomon Glassman Lodger Widower Male 26 1825 Glazier Prussia, Germany
Maxie Jaskulch Lodger Unmarried Male 24 1827 Sailor Prussia, Germany
Abraham Warnham Lodger Unmarried Male 21 1830 Sailor Poland (Russia)
Maxie Myers Lodger Unmarried Male 27 1824 Glazier Poland (Russia)
Simon Myers Son Unmarried Male 22 1829 Glazier Poland (Russia)
Morris Solomon Son Unmarried Male 21 1830 Glazier Poland (Russia)
Jacob Herris Son Unmarried Male 15 1836 Glazier Poland (Russia)
Abraham Rosenberg Son Unmarried Male 3 1848 - Poland (Russia)
Hamar Rosenberg Daughter - Female 7 1844 - Poland (Russia)

If you mean, what does Xn mean, it means Christian. He would have a first name, but it wouldn't be a "Christian" name if he was a Jew.

Perhaps he objected to the term when giving the birth details to the registrar?

In reply to 1851 , yes it could possibly have been his brother , he was younger ..

So his name will remain a mystery it seems, would he have to convert to Janes religion or vice versa ? maybe explain lack of marriage

i was informed he changed names on arrival

The note
"Register note aged 17; The father is a Jew and therefore bears no Xn name "

is in relation to a Parish ie Christian Church register.

Either the priest wouldn't record his name as he was Jewish rather than Christian or George was being fussy and insisted that he didn't have a 'Christian' name.

A civil birth certificate just says Name, without any impliction as to a religion.
....
There was nothing stopping George and Jane L from marrying in a civil ceremony, apart from family pressure and possibly the cost.

He should have converted to Christianity to marry his second wife in Church although you'd have thought there would be an adult baptism record somewhere. Perhaps he couldn't be bothered to argue or the priest couldn't care less. George would have been part of the community for getting on for 40 years!

Burial
County Somerset
Place Frome
Church name Holy Trinity
Register type Parish Register
Register entry number 481
Burial date 03 Jul 1907
Person age 56
Burial person forename Maty Ann
Burial person surname HARRIS
Burial person abode 11 The Mint

Chris :)

(quite a few newspaper items relate to her 1879)

All England & Wales, Criminal Registers, 1791-1892 (Ancestry)

Mary Ann Brooks
28 Oct 1879 Somerset, England
(Concealment)


Births Sep 1879 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------
Brooks Female Frome 5c 482

Deaths Sep 1879 (>99%)
----------------------------------------------
Brooks Female 0 Frome 5c 292


1870
Elizabeth SAINSBURY
William YEO

1863
Elizabeth WILLCOX
John SAINSBURY

(George/Jane witnesses at above Marriages)

I wonder if this could be relevant or perhaps a red herring?


HO 1/156/6163
Description:
Naturalisation Papers: Hesel, Joachim (known as George Harris), from Prussia. Certificate 6163 issued 16 April 1869.
Date: 1869
Held by: The National Archives, Kew
Legal status: Public Record(s)
Closure status: Open Document, Open Description

From the National Archives.

Interesting ,thankyou so much, it's not impossible being as he changed both names,

any idea if these can be sent for ??

will have to keep this to record until work picks up

http://www.rootschat.com/forum/index.php?topic=53348.0

(looks to be that person on above)

Chris :)

http://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/details/r/C7315380

(available on above)