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Well, as we have dug this one up, I'll put my tuppenceworth in. If Ruby's daughter was born in Scotland then there must surely be a birth registration - it was against the law NOT to register!

If Lucy's Nan is called Enni, then her given name is possible Georgina? (In Scotland, Georgina is often shortened to Ena)

A name-shifting 16-yr-old actress, just like my Ada Lennox Monck Hill/Monck!

What fun. ;)

Just to help Lucy out,

Emma Georgina Sheffield born 1868
who called herself Emma Georgina Carash when she married Mr Garner 1906
had children

1. Cedric Sheffield 1893
who called himself Cedric Carash when he married 1919

and

2. Ruby Dorothy Carash 1895 who called herself Ruby Garner
who was the mother of

Ruby G Gordon 1914
who married John Forder and then Arthur Vass

Name: Ruby Georgina Vass
Birth Date: 12 Aug 1914
Death Registration Month/Year: 1976
Registration district: Bromley
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 11
Page: 0914

Ruby Dorothy/Constance Carash/Garner 1895
daughter of Emma Georgina Sheffield Carash Garner 1868
mother of Ruby Georgina Gordon 1914
later married Gustav Hoffman/De Becker in 1935


Should have put that at the beginning, but had to figure it out first!

The full 1911 census
1911 census - household transcription
Person: SHEFFIELD, Joseph
Address: 123 Burlington Road Thornton Heath


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TYRELL, William Bertram Head Married M 33 1878 Letter Sorter Sussex Hastings VIEW
TYRELL, Esther Louisa Wife Married
8 years F 32 1879 London Balham VIEW
TYRELL, Grace Isabel Daughter F 5 1906 Surrey Croydon VIEW
SHEFFIELD, Joseph Father In Law Widower M 73 1838 Retired Fishmonger Old Age Pensioner London Hackney Rd 28 Charles ST VIEW
GARNER, Ruby Dorothy Constance Niece Single F 16 1895 Actress Surrey Croydon VIEW

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Here is the Sheffield household in 1891 in Croydon

Joseph Sheffield 53
Jane Sheffield 50
>> Emma G Sheffield 23
James A Sheffield 14
Margaret G Sheffield 14
Herter L Sheffield 12 (Hester)
Rebekah A Sheffield 6

Births Mar 1868
SHEFFIELD Emma Georgina
Newington 1d 226

Wherever she got the name CARASH from, it wasn't marriage (unless it was outside England/Wales). That is the only record for the name Emma Georgina Sheffield.


This is the household in 1901 in Croydon:

Joseph Sheffield 63
Esther L Sheffield 21 (who marries and is Ester Tyrell in 1911)
> Cedric Sheffield 8 - born Clapham

Cedric seems to be Emma Georgina's son, rather than brother, but I can't find his birth.

But look:

Marriages Dec 1919
Carash Cedric T J to Kilminster
Camberwell 1d 1885

Births Mar 1921
Carash Cedric J mother Kilminster
Lambeth 1d 778
Births Mar 1924
Carash Peter mother Kilminster
Camberwell 1d 1208
Births Jun 1929
Carash Dianna R mother Kelminster
Camberwell 1d 1011

Deaths Sep 1931
Carash Cedric T J age 39
Southwark 1d 27

>> There is a line of the Carash surname down from Cedric.
If you search trees at this website for the surname CARASH and no other details, you will find that several of them are members of this site.

There are also people with Emma Sheffield born 1868 Newington (or Camberwell), and Cedric Sheffield born 1893 Clapham.

These are all people you could try to contact for more information about the Sheffield / Carash / Garner / Gordon etc. families, and just to meet, as you are all related somehow. ;)



And I wasn't paying attention at first to those Carash results.

I think this is Ruby Dorothy Constance Carash Garner marrying her Swiss man, who had two names:

Marriages Dec 1935
Carash Dorothy C to Hoffman
Carash Dorothy C to De Becker
De Becker Gustav H N to Carash
Hoffmann Gustav H N to Carash
Wandsworth 1d 1205


The mystery seems to be largely solved, so I guess I'd better send a PM!

Haha, jax. Unintended consequences. ;)

Lucky for Lucy!

Well, interesting. Whom do we have in the 1911 census?

GARNER RUBY DOROTHY CONSTANCE 1895 age 16 born in Croydon Surrey

She is not living with anyone else named Garner. I don't pay for access to the 1911 census, but let's see what I can figure out.

She's living with:

SHEFFIELD JOSEPH 1838 73
>> this is the name of Emma Georgina Carash's father, on her 1906 marriage
TYRELL WILLIAM BERTRAM 1878 33
TYRELL ESTHER LOUISA 1879 32
TYRELL GRACE ISABEL 1906 5


So it looks like the Sheffield - Garner trail is the right one after all.

Ruby Carash's mother Emma Georgina Carash married Mr Garner in 1906, and Ruby then went by the name Garner.

But she doesn't seem to have married a Mr. Gordon under the name Garner either.

So you still need Ruby Gordon's birth certificate to get the names of her parents.

Its in the Baker surname board thats why its been dug up I would think. Cannot see anyone called Baker though ??

jax

Where'd you dig this up from, MM? ;)


Lucy just wasn't following. If you're reading again, Lucy, you need to pay attention as you read.

You keep saying that Ruby married Ted Vas. Ted is obviously a nickname. **She married Arthur Vass.** For instance.

The 1906 record about Emma Georgina Carash isn't a birth, it's a marriage -- in case Ruby's mother was previously married, that was a possibility. But she was ruled out by finding a different marriage for her. (Oops! I spoke too soon -- keep reading!)

**Ruby G Gordon** married John Forder. That marriage was posted above a couple of times.

The *only* birth of a Ruby G Gordon, to account for that marriage, was in 1914, and the mother's surname was Carash.

The *only* way you are going to find out who the mother was is to order the birth certificate for Ruby G Gordon.

People here have tried to figure out who she was, but haven't been able to. Only the birth certificate can say for sure in any event.

If you go to FreeBMD

http://www.freebmd.org.uk/cgi/search.pl

and search for the surname CARASH -- all events, don't give any date or place -- there are only six records in total in 1906 and before.

The death of two young children in 1894 and 1895.
Two births, in 1895 and 1897
The death of one of those children in 1897
The marriage of Emma Georgina Carash in 1906

Then there are other events starting in 1919.

This is the birth in 1895:

Births Jun 1895
Carash Ruby Dorothy Croydon 2a 241

That looks to me like it is very likely to be the mother of Ruby G Gordon, whose parents quite probably weren't married.

But **only the birth certificate** will tell you who they were.

The marriage on Ancestry:

London, England, Marriages and Banns, 1754-1921
about William Henry Garner
Name: William Henry Garner
Age: 64
Estimated birth year: abt 1842
Spouse Name: Emma Georgina Carasl
Spouse Age: 38
Record Type: Marriage
Marriage Date: 15 Apr 1906
Parish: St Matthew, Brixton
County: Surrey
Borough: Lambeth
Father Name: William Garner
Spouse Father Name: Joseph Sheffield

He's a widower, she's a widow. Her name is signed Emma Georgina Carash,

The only problem with this is daughter Ruby's birth should show mother's maiden name as Sheffield not Caresh which was her previous married name.

Hi

I need to find some information on Ruby Gordon's mother and father the information above does not add up if her mother was Emma Crasah she would have had ruby when she was like 7 so this can't be her. This lady is said to have re-married after having two children ennie and norma, but ennie is not registered only norma is. She moved to switzerland and married a count, but without her full name it is hard to check records in switzerland, any help on her name when she was born would be of such good help

Many Thanks
x

Ruby's maiden name was Gordon.

Here is Ruby's birth registration. Buy a copy of it and the names of her parents will be on it.

Births Dec 1914 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GORDON Ruby G Carash Lambeth 1d 745

You can order the certificate online from www.gro.gov.uk It will cost you £9.25 including postage.

Just for good measure here is Ruby's child Norma's birth registration:

Name: Norma S Forder
Mother's Maiden Surname: Gordon
Date of Registration: Apr May Jun 1948
Registration district: Hammersmith
Registration county: Greater London, Middlesex
Volume Number: 5c
Page Number: 1189

PLUS Ruby's death registration:

Name: Ruby Georgina Vass
Birth Date: 12 Aug 1914
Death Registration Month/Year: 1976
Registration district: Bromley
Inferred County: Kent
Volume: 11
Page: 0914

Thanks everyone for this information but i don't know what i am looking at it looks confusing. Just to clarify my post

I am looking for the mother and father of Ruby and Douglas.

I know that Ruby married John Forder.

She would have been born 1913-1922

She then re-married someone called Ted Vas.

I don't know when Ruby was born or what her madien name is.

I think if i could find her marriage certificate i could find her madian name so i would have a surname to search for.

I know Ruby had two children Ennie and Norma. Enni is my nan and was born in scotland but her birth was not regitsered or documents got lost at the end of ww2.

Any help would be welcome as i am new to this

Many Thanks

Lucy

I can't see a Gordon carash marriage so you would need to order a birth cert for one of the children to confirm parentage. However I wonder if the mother had been previously married??

England & Wales, FreeBMD Marriage Index: 1837-1915
about Emma Georgina Carash
Name: Emma Georgina Carash
Year of Registration: 1906
Quarter of Registration: Apr-May-Jun
District: Lambeth
County: Greater London, London, Surrey
Volume: 1d
Page: 455

To one of these gents;

William Henry Garner
Ernest Walter Pankhurst



Dee x


EDIT>>>>>>>>>> This lady later remarried;

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1924 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GARNER Emma G Caplin Camberwell 1d 1635



Found her as a witness on her brother Cedrics marriage as Emma Georgina Caplin in 1919, so not your lady.

Siblings of Ruby??

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1913 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gordon Dudley B Carash Lambeth 1d 829

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1917 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gordon Norman C Carash Lambeth 1d 422

Possible birth for Ruby;

Surname First name(s) Mother District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Births Dec 1914 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GORDON Ruby G Carash Lambeth 1d 745



Dee x

Just to clarify your post;

Surname First name(s) Spouse District Vol Page

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Marriages Dec 1939 (64%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forder John J Gordon Camberwell 1d 2420
Gordon Ruby G Forder Camberwell 1d 2420



Then marriage to ;

England & Wales, Marriage Index: 1916-2005
about Ruby G Forder
Name: Ruby G Forder
Spouse Surname: Vass
Date of Registration: Oct-Nov-Dec 1966
Registration district: Lewisham
Registration county (inferred): Kent
Volume Number: 5d
Page Number: 627
Find Spouse: Arthur vass


Dee x

Marriages Dec 1939 (64%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Forder John J Gordon Camberwell 1d 2420
Gordon Ruby G Forder Camberwell 1d 2420

Possibility:

Births Dec 1914 (>99%)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

GORDON Ruby G Carash Lambeth 1d 745

Her 2nd marriage was in 1966 to Arthur Vass

I do not know what there surnames would be but i know that ruby married john forder and then divorced and married Ted. They are from forest hill in south london,.

I am not sure if teds surname was Vass or her mothers name was Vass so it would be her madien name

Rumor in our family is the mother went to switzerland and married into nobilty. She would have been born around 1880-1900s

Any help would be greatful